Pic very much related for the hopeful sentiment of this thread also. :) Lets aim to keep the good spirit up. Bare with the absurd Finnish memes which might appear every now and then.
Im from RK. Can you send airfood if we start starving?
>which got filled up
Froidian slip if I ever seen one, thinking about getting "filled up" othen ?
Is it hard to find a cute gf in Finland if you are an average guy with average income, not very confident?
I don't know man, our Minister of Economic Affairs said a few days ago that the price of food might double in a year because of the sanctions (from the fertilizer and fuel prices)
(Answering to messages from the old thread to this one):
Ouch. I guess that might be the case for many Ruskis at the very moment. Lets hope the situation would be over ASAP. Are there any job opportunies in Russia atm, is there a hope for new job?
Putin's speeches haven't been exactly my favorite, all tho I must admit, that in the context of his agenda, I guess he is doing all rite from the perspect of communications.
One of our leading foreign policy scientist put it well some time ago "Putin's speeches are the ones to fuck up the flow spaces."
>47223555
This one I didn't exactly undestand.
It's undeniable, that the situation has provoked a reaction stemming from some deep past war traumas (I think.) The history is too fresh, for us not to remember the feeling of hopelessly being left alone vs. alot bigger country. Neutrality didn't help then.
I'm almost certain this is one of the aims of the hired Kreml trolls. To create enemy pictures on both sides. This was also one of the reasons I came up chatter here in the first place. "The first casualty of the war is the truth." If things escalate, it won't be any of our war. If it was up to people, we'd just like to live in peace, on both sides. It doesn't even take an hour of talk with a Ruski and Finn to relate to this feeling. The war would be absolute mindless.
Tho I'm pretty sure majority of the Finns know where to channel the negativity, and who the real enemy is. It's not the Russian people. This goes for majority of Ruskis aswell, they don't view us enemies. https://www.youtube.com/c/1420channel/videos <- We shouldn't ever forget that the trolls don't represent the real voice of Ruski people. (If Ruskis somehow get cut out from internet, I see some horror scenarios evolving, all tho if I've understood right, Ruskis have became experts in passing by the restrictions made by the regime with VPN & Tor etc.)
Yea, I've got it. Ruskis explained well how they use amo to suppress the protests. And I also got that they absolutely need to do that, in order to save their own lives even. People in the west have maybe had this illusion of Ruskis being more democratic.
>i already deleted my profile from vk bcs tov. major
?
There are reasons to suspect that Ukrainians won't be the last. And not just paranoidic ones. It just might be that the outcome of the Ukrainian situation will determine our future aswell.
You must understand that Putin has absolutely 0 credibility left in west. He doesn't provoke trust, only the opposite. Even if he says "we won't attack our neighbors", nobody trusts him. We could trust Russian people, but Putin doesn't care about your opinion.
NATO is viewed an option atm., but not certainty. It might very well be the hardest question for our society which we've ever had. Neutrality = ideal, but possibly naive one (there are no guarantees Putin's regime would respect it.) NATO = safety, but might also mean one way ticket to WW3.
Answering next ones in a minute.
Ouch. I guess that might be the case for many Ruskis at the very moment. Lets hope the situation would be over ASAP. Are there any job opportunies in Russia atm, is there a hope for new job?
Putin's speeches haven't been exactly my favorite, all tho I must admit, that in the context of his agenda, I guess he is doing all rite from the perspect of communications.
One of our leading foreign policy scientist put it well some time ago "Putin's speeches are the ones to fuck up the flow spaces."
>47223555
This one I didn't exactly undestand.
It's undeniable, that the situation has provoked a reaction stemming from some deep past war traumas (I think.) The history is too fresh, for us not to remember the feeling of hopelessly being left alone vs. alot bigger country. Neutrality didn't help then.
I'm almost certain this is one of the aims of the hired Kreml trolls. To create enemy pictures on both sides. This was also one of the reasons I came up chatter here in the first place. "The first casualty of the war is the truth." If things escalate, it won't be any of our war. If it was up to people, we'd just like to live in peace, on both sides. It doesn't even take an hour of talk with a Ruski and Finn to relate to this feeling. The war would be absolute mindless.
Tho I'm pretty sure majority of the Finns know where to channel the negativity, and who the real enemy is. It's not the Russian people. This goes for majority of Ruskis aswell, they don't view us enemies. https://www.youtube.com/c/1420channel/videos <- We shouldn't ever forget that the trolls don't represent the real voice of Ruski people. (If Ruskis somehow get cut out from internet, I see some horror scenarios evolving, all tho if I've understood right, Ruskis have became experts in passing by the restrictions made by the regime with VPN & Tor etc.)
Yea, I've got it. Ruskis explained well how they use amo to suppress the protests. And I also got that they absolutely need to do that, in order to save their own lives even. People in the west have maybe had this illusion of Ruskis being more democratic.
>i already deleted my profile from vk bcs tov. major
?
There are reasons to suspect that Ukrainians won't be the last. And not just paranoidic ones. It just might be that the outcome of the Ukrainian situation will determine our future aswell.
You must understand that Putin has absolutely 0 credibility left in west. He doesn't provoke trust, only the opposite. Even if he says "we won't attack our neighbors", nobody trusts him. We could trust Russian people, but Putin doesn't care about your opinion.
NATO is viewed an option atm., but not certainty. It might very well be the hardest question for our society which we've ever had. Neutrality = ideal, but possibly naive one (there are no guarantees Putin's regime would respect it.) NATO = safety, but might also mean one way ticket to WW3.
Answering next ones in a minute.
What is RK?
Lets hope the situation wouldn't go that.
Also isn't there, in theory, a fuckload of space in Russia to cultivate food?
In that context, it doesn't really resemble a freudian slip to me. Remember, the freudian slips can also be the ones heard incorrectly. ;)
Double? o_O
But yeah. It's creepy how one of the CEO's of food wholesale company announced about price of grain which has already risen. "I just bought the most expensive grain in the whole universe. And the next thing I'm going to do, is to sell it to you."
Have you already prepped for the nuclear war? I mean. I could imagine there to be scenarios where it comes without it warning about itself, more than it already has.
I mean, it is possible. But it is easier to find a really grumpy and hardheaded one, which will eat you alive. :D
Idk if you've heard, but it's been studied, that the longer you spend time with someone, the less meaningful her looks turn. The surface loses it's signifigancy in long term relationships. It might be better to look beyond the looks at the very beginning. Inner beauty, cliche, I know, but isn't that the same thing you want your future woman to see in you?
>Are there any job opportunies in Russia atm, is there a hope for new job?
I dramatised, I'll be fine, just the firm I'm in is unable to deliver product anymore due to manufacture clising down, the just begun to deliver something else, the middle man is fucked thought, my friends father works there.
Answering to message from last thread:
You are absolutely right. We smaller countries have a problem to get our voices heard. History has proven, that the empirists and colonialists power have a problem understanding our sovereignty, and even sovereign history. If the earth around us forgets that we are an unique snowflake, we might melt, and disappear. That's already what has happened to many of our ancestors. Forgotten in the pages of history.
>Does there exist a different option to support?
What do you view the best 2nd. option then?
>Oh, the role playing
In your thoughts, yes, kinda. But not accordingly to your situation only. The veil of ignorance means you don't know how you will be born. For example, you might get born as fully retarded person. And the thought experiment seeks to demonstrate, how you should create society paying attention to the ones, who could've aswell been you.
>And yes, for most it was the greatest way to live, uncertainty and lonelyness of the modern world does exactly thrill them
This is also a problem, I guess everywhere. The transform of communality is going on. It takes time to restructure things with such a fast space of cultural evolution. Not too many generations ago, our ancestors were still chopping wood etc., and there was always people next to you - there had to be. Loneliness is one of the biggest challenges of psychology to solve in this era. Some argue that it's the most one of the deadliest phenomenons in developed societies.
>Modern Russia have no hope.
I gotta admit, things look somewhat hopeless atm, or atleast it's hard to see, how we are coming back to sanity from this as one world who is capable of co-operation. But hey, I've found some hope with talking to you Ruskis. It's hard to kill hope, or even impossible. In the end, that's what might determine one's strength.
You are absolutely right. We smaller countries have a problem to get our voices heard. History has proven, that the empirists and colonialists power have a problem understanding our sovereignty, and even sovereign history. If the earth around us forgets that we are an unique snowflake, we might melt, and disappear. That's already what has happened to many of our ancestors. Forgotten in the pages of history.
>Does there exist a different option to support?
What do you view the best 2nd. option then?
>Oh, the role playing
In your thoughts, yes, kinda. But not accordingly to your situation only. The veil of ignorance means you don't know how you will be born. For example, you might get born as fully retarded person. And the thought experiment seeks to demonstrate, how you should create society paying attention to the ones, who could've aswell been you.
>And yes, for most it was the greatest way to live, uncertainty and lonelyness of the modern world does exactly thrill them
This is also a problem, I guess everywhere. The transform of communality is going on. It takes time to restructure things with such a fast space of cultural evolution. Not too many generations ago, our ancestors were still chopping wood etc., and there was always people next to you - there had to be. Loneliness is one of the biggest challenges of psychology to solve in this era. Some argue that it's the most one of the deadliest phenomenons in developed societies.
>Modern Russia have no hope.
I gotta admit, things look somewhat hopeless atm, or atleast it's hard to see, how we are coming back to sanity from this as one world who is capable of co-operation. But hey, I've found some hope with talking to you Ruskis. It's hard to kill hope, or even impossible. In the end, that's what might determine one's strength.
>In that context, it doesn't really resemble a freudian slip to me
You maneuvering as brig in storm..........
I bet the guy has dug so deep down in the bunker, and Siberia being so vast, that it's absolutely impossible to find him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_close_calls
I think I said this in last thread also: Even if this isn't the crisis ending us, I'm afraid of that if things are let to continue like this, eventually some fuckhead will succeed to do the worst mistake of the whole planet.
That's good. There was also some news about your government increasing salaries, social benefits, etc.?
Do you think that this scenario could be avoided from evolving any further, and things returned back to somewhat normal, if Putin would call his soldiers back? I mean, if I've understood right, some of the western companies leaving Russia has betted that to be a possibility (if I've got this right.)
>You maneuvering as brig in storm
Are you saying I'm living in a denial, and my subconsciousness is trying to tell me, that I'd like to be fucked in the ass?
That's too big of a psychoanalytic cliche for me to swallow!
Sup, suomiveli.
What's your opinion on Ukrainian refugees?
t. Ukrainian refugee
Why are you hanging out in this shithole though?
>We smaller countries have a problem to get our voices heard
That is......strange interpretation of my words.
>have a problem understanding
Caring, not understanding.
>If the earth around us forgets that we are an unique snowflake, we might melt, and disappear.
That's the plan.
>What do you view the best 2nd. option then?
I'm with Putin, just more radical and not pro-soviet. There is only two sides here, pro-russian and pro-ukranian. Been born russian the choes is obvious for me.
>For example, you might get born as fully retarded person
Then i would act as one.
>The transform of communality is going on
Not in Russia, here it is in final form.
>In the end, that's what might determine one's strength.
Strength don't bring hope, you know, without people around you to.give this strength.too.it is just a burden. Been weak is better, don't have to endure as long.
>There was also some news about your government increasing salaries, social benefits, etc.?
All bullshit.
>if Putin would call his soldiers back
At this point it's victory or death.
>that I'd like to be fucked in the ass?
Maybe in the mouth, yeah, pretty much.
That an ugly thing to say.
Hiiohoi halojata päivää!
General view: I think that Ukrainians are welcomed. Actually, more than welcomed: there has been some discussion about Finns being racist, because in some past cases refugees have not felt that they are welcome.
Often times we see people coming here, full grown men. They are leaving their families behind. On this case, we've even seen the exact opposite: Ukrainians even leaving Finland to fight for their country. That's a huge respect factor. Besides, the war we see now, comes close to us. Every Finn can relate to the situation that Ukraine is today.
My personal view: Ukrainians have my sympathy already, and I try to view every immigrant as equal humanbeing. I'm sorry for what's going on for ukrainians, and I hope we can offer every refugee something better than what they left for.
That being said, respect - just like disrespect - has to be earned. I have positive expectations about Ukrainian refugees, and I could imagine this to be the case for majority of Finns. That's a good start.
I hope that Ruski refugees get also treated equally, as there are Ruskis coming also. They should have our sympathy aswell, who knows how shitty or even dangerous situation they've have to leave behind. If I'd be Ruski, there's big change of I'd be going already. Putin should not be a reason to hate anyone, all tho I admit because of his actions there might be some "extra" prejudices and paranoia be going on. Putin's regime has bought estate everywhere near strategic points of Finland for possible invasion. Some speculate, that if Putin chooses war vs. Finland also, those estates will be used maybe even by Russian desants, who some might already be here before the war starts.
I won't even start explaining what the Kreml's trolls do to the relations. Luckily, we are getting day and day more conscious about their presence, and we are growing more immune to their bullshit.
Cool, thank you for your answer.
You can ask this Ukrainian a question if you like. inb4 anything: I'm a male and I've arrived prior to the draft and I do not wish to fight, so I'm an aberration, as most of the refugees are women, children and infirm.
70% this guy is a NATO secret police spy.
I felt that it would do some good to chatter directly with Ruskis themselves. This situation seems so fucking hopeless from time to time, so I wanted to know how do Ruskis view the situation.
And tbh, you Ruskis haven't let me down. There has been alot of hope to be found in the thoughts of Ruskis. Besides that, it's always good to break some prejudices. Also the picture has gotten much clearer.
Also, the context is, that nowadays we see alot of Kreml's trolls flooding the western media, and idk if they are even human in some cases (literally, idk if in some cases they are some weird hate bots wanting to spread hate & fear. Recently I found out that their propaganda machine also uses AI.)
Finnland is not in NATO so disregard me, i suck cocks.
The man of international intrigue !!!!!!!!!!
He can use VPN or something, there's plenty of hohols under russian flag for example.
Haha, maybe I should've clarified it better, that nobody expects that from refugees. But that's what we saw when the situation started, before any refugees even arrived. The view for humanitarian immigration system is more empathetic in it's premises anyways (compare to labor migration, where you are expected immediately to be productive part of society.)
That being said, no one here can tell you what to do, or how to be like. It's your own business how you choose to spend your freedom. We've pacifists etc. on our own, and it's not like they're found harmful or anything (or well, maybe the redneck boomers think that everyone has to be ready for guerilla war 24/7. :D You know what sisu is?)
How you find out the Finland? Have you been here for long? Have you been treated well?
You think? In our home imageboard Ylilauta, I'd prolly call myself a "neutralbot", until someone suspects me to be some sort of "ryssäbot" (Kreml troll), until I try to explain myself better, and only then I'm called "NATO-/hybridcenterbot". :D
Maybe I'm having some sort of weird external identity crisis?
>You know what sisu is?
Yeah, I am aware. Stiff upper lip, Nordic style.
>How you find out the Finland? Have you been here for long? Have you been treated well?
I'm in love with this country and all for the wrong reasons. I like the weather, I like the nature (this one's actually a bit more in line with why foreigners usually like it) and I like Finnish inherent mentality of aggressively minding their own business. Sometimes it can be sad, especially when you have a drive to socialize but I'm an introvert for the most part, so it's a blessing most of the time.
Within the timeframe of this situation - not for long. I've arrive almost a month before Putin attacked Ukraine. I've had a gut feeling that Putin might go all-in, same kind of feeling I've had when I was displaced in 2014 from the Eastern Ukraine. Everyone else was like "nah, it's not going to happen, he's just bluffing".
I was going to return on the 17th but then I've decided to stay for a bit longer, within the legal limit of the Schenghen. And then I woke up at 5 PM on 24th to a Telegram message about a war. However, I've been to Finland before that as well.
I have been treated more than well, I have someone here I intend to marry.
Well, if you choose to stay longer, I recommend you to exercise sisu to best of your ability. For example, ice swimming is suitable entry-level practice. Stay in the frozen lake till you can hear the Ukko whispering the thoughts to your head, such as "PERKELE! PERKELE! PERKELE!"
Then go chop some wood, until you are so tired, that you can only have strength to swing the axe accompanied by the words "PERKELE!" (if neighbors hear this is +sisu for all, because it activates collective sisu-energies.)
Is your gf grumpy and stubborn? Has she beaten you up yet? With sisu in your mind you don't feel no physical pain. It turns into instant shame instead.
When your too depressed to continue the life anymore, don't think that it stops there. That's the time to open the Koskenkorva (instant recovery of sisu in the form of illusion.) Drink the Koskenkorva until you are ready to continue. The point of sisu is to struggle on, even when you don't feel like it, no matter what, you gotta find a way, because of sisu and perkele.
Then there's the second option also, to adopt a healthier view about masculinity.
>all for the wrong reasons.
Tbh, you prolly just explained why most of the Finns like it here. I have a theory, that in our origins we were the people who didn't feel like socializing in the first place, so we tried to find a peaceful place far away from anything else. Introverts indeed like it here.
>drive to socialize
I'd like to think, that once you get to know the Finns, you begin to find the words to break the ice around you faster. I think most of us are extroverts (all tho in international standards that's up to debate.) They just don't show it. Also Finns suck at small talk, because it might be found "artificial"/awkward. I've found out it easier to connect with Finns about "serious subjects", than with small talk. Even with strangers.
What is the biggest difference between an Ukrainian & a Finn?
May I ask: do you still have home left in Ukraine? Were there many to leave in 2014 from the separatist area?
Good to hear that you've been treated well. :)
Hehehehe.
>Ukko whispering the thoughts to your head, such as "PERKELE! PERKELE! PERKELE!"
More like "SAATANA PERKELE VITTUN KYRPÄ" or "MUN! TÄYTYY! LAULAA! METALLIBÄNDISSÄ!!!! RAAAAAAHHHH".
>Also Finns suck at small talk, because it might be found "artificial"/awkward. I've found out it easier to connect with Finns about "serious subjects", than with small talk. Even with strangers.
I like that as well. I like that I can talk about serious subjects and people are engaged and I'm not required to maintain the social banter. Though, it would seem like the generation younger than me is slowly adopting an Americanized approach.
>May I ask: do you still have home left in Ukraine? Were there many to leave in 2014 from the separatist area?
Technically yes. My rented flat is still standing and my mother and sister live in the occupied territories in the East. But I'm not entirely sure it'll be a good idea for me to return there, to either place.
There were many people to leave and a lot of people have never returned, however, there was a trickle of people (including my mother) who decided to return, because they thought it was going to be easier in familiar surroundings.
>What is the biggest difference between an Ukrainian & a Finn?
I forgot to answer this one.
In my opinion, Ukrainians are a bit more extroverted in the ways that would annoy an average Finn. We are cynical, more so than you and we do not trust the authorities. I was surprised just how much you trust the state here. Sure there's a grumbling here and there but you all trust that the state will take care of you, and compared to my life in Ukraine, I'd say that your state is pretty good at keeping its' promise.
We probably are more inclined to search for backdoor ways of solving problems but that's also due to our state apparatus not functioning as intended.
>Kreml trolls
I lol`d. Is there exist another name for them? This one looks absurd. I mean that the word "troll" is reserved for other people, you know.
But ok, I understand the genesis of this term.
>hate bots wanting to spread hate & fear
For what reason, how do think? Provide us with a handful of examples of such propaganda, it`s very interesting to know.
The question I want to ask is the following.
Putin mentioned during his latest speech that the process of national self-cleaning has already started. He spoke about peoples who promote the interests of Western states and called them traitors. So, for example, there are a lot of mass media highlight the theses of Western war propaganda. Some of them are already banned, their employyes has rush to foregin states and now write about "terrible Russia" and "police regime". I think such peoples deserved the hatred - for years they had spread misinformation, myths and had worked systematically to "prove" that Russia, is rudely speaking, barbarian country with the population of savage orcs who must pray for Western favour. I know such peoples and a had worked with them, so, I saw them literally cultists. Someone may call them "free media" or "opposition" but this is not true. Currently, you can find a lot of repents "I am ashamed that I am Russian". Bastards.
The question is - what do you think about such inner foes? What do peoples in your country think about them?
Sry for my English, I am not a permament 4chan dweller
Съебись в /инт, олень северный. А лучше на свою оленью олелаоту. О культуре он пришёл на политач поговорить, пидор гнойный.
Чо злой такой, русняш?
English, please.
Why so angry, russkie?
Seems like you've got to known Finnish mentality good. :)
Do they get to live in peace there? How is the life in separatist areas? Idk, for some reason I've imagined it to be chaotic.
>I was surprised just how much you trust the state here
Trust = power in democracy. Also we have long traditions of being honest, and journalists have free hands to watch for every move of elite. One lie can be really harmful for a politician, it might even end the career. This doesn't go only for politicians, but for people also working in central institutions etc. Basically, I don't even have to trust the state. If politician fucks up, I can trust 100% for someone to rip him apart, and make sure he pays for his lies.
Tbh I find that Finns shouldn't be even so cynical that we are nowadays towards our system. We should appreciate it more, and not take it as granted.
>backdoor ways of solving problems
I said it before in the past thread: democracy is a long road, and cannot be expected to be ready. It has to evolve and develop, sometimes thru miss & error. For some the road is rockier than others.
Us being a small country sure helps organizing things up. Also, we don't have much natural resources (instead nature wants us to freeze), so in a sense people are our only hope as a resource. Better keep good care of 'em.
Actually "Kremlintrolls" & "Lakhtas" I heard from Ruskis as a term. And yes, some of them are living people being hired to troll all around the internet - some of it work of AI. In Finland they even use Finnish language. It's been so for over a decade now, atleast.
I recently watched this interview of some academic who had studied this, and he said that only Facebook had deleted billions (not millions, but billions) of propaganda fake accounts. They infiltrate everywhere, and support pro-Kreml narratives & propaganda & disinformation.
As one example, we've seen co-vid anti-vac propaganda. Recently I saw an article, where some IT-specialist was interviewed. He told that in Canada they had blocked one net-work operator from Russia, and it showed as 95% decline as co-vid propaganda spam. :D
>The question is - what do you think about such inner foes?
I think anyone is entitled to patriotic feelings, and to define what the patriotism means. It's not up to leader to decide what's patriotic, and what's not. It's people's job, and it's both an individual and a collective project.
Personally, I find Russia kinda screwed up as a system (all tho I've been explained well now, why it has been hard to create a working one.) And sometimes it's neighbors have to pay the price for that in the form of mindless wars. For me, I'd like to see Russia as stable as possible, preferably finding a democratic way of living (I know, another westerner telling Ruskis how to live.) Nah, it's just that if Ruskis go for dictatorship again and again, we know how that ends. Sooner or later a mad man rises in power, or a healthy man in his origins, who gets corrupt and goes crazy, and starts acting out. We've seen this happen too many times. And once again, it's happening.
I might add that it's rarely, if ever, people's will go to a war. I find Ruskis relatable as a people. That being said, if this is evolving into WW3, and only way to stop is the work of fifth column (a term Putin used in his speech), why wouldn't I view them as my heroes? In best case scenario, they can save up the whole planet. You know the Stanislav Petrov, the one to defy orders to start a nuclear war? He's one of my heroes.
That being said, the last thread was kinda eye opening. I now realize better, that the people really don't have a change to organize in healthy opposition. It's not even possible in Russia, if I've understood right. Not without sacrificing one's well being. Would I want to Ruskis to protest, if they can get to prison for years because of that? Nope. Do I want to see change in Russia? Yes. Do I know how it could happen? No.
So what I'm trying to say is that, as there is no free media, no opposition, no democracy, and at the same time there are people who'd like to have such things, why not to encourage such systems? Could they be harmful, in the long term, even for the ones who support Putin? I might want to add, that Russia is the fatherland of the non-Putinists aswell, and I totally understand why they don't support Putin, but even want to fight against his regime.
And is there a rational reason to believe, that if Russia had such systems in their country - would there be a reason to call them bastards? Would we be in this situation in the first place? I don't believe one second Ruskis to be barbarians or anything like that. Their system is just flawed. And if there are people who feel comfort in that system, and they support it, do I blame them? No. If there are people who feel fear and hate because of the system, should they be viewed as bad people, or traitors, or as a scum? No.
Instead of war, there exists endless opportunities for peace and co-operation with Ruskis and Europeans. That world, I imagine, would be better for Ruskis themselves, and better for myself. It seems impossible without critical attitude towards this line that Putin has chosen. If the ones flee the country, how is the future going to be like?
Does this answer your question?
>Do they get to live in peace there?
Relatively, my sister's husband is now semi-hiding from the authorities, so that he doesn't get pressed into service.
>How is the life in separatist areas?
Shitty and depressing. The area in general (with exception of Donetsk) is urbanized, grey, gloomy and depressing. And now, with any semblance of normality gone, it seems to be just a de-facto part of Rostov Oblast (locals just go there for anything important).
Something like that.
Lets hope for this to be over soon, and things to return back to sanity ASAP. There seems to be some hope rising about peace. How do you think all this will end?
No peace until one side folds. Putin has committed too much for this to stop midway. Sadly.
>"Kremlintrolls" & "Lakhtas"
Yes, they are. Another word is "kremlebot", you know.
>(not millions, but billions) of propaganda fake accounts
Really? I do not read Western social networks (so, I read only academic papers, American strategic reports like "Paradoxed of Progress" and Rome Club reports, and news; here I mean Western information sources) and saw only a few reports about how Russian propaganda machine works against Western countries. The information you said looks shocking for me, I have never faced this problem from, hmmm, other side. All the warnings in Western media about this I found hyperbolic; for instance, I laught when read about "Russia`s intervention into US President election".
Of course, huge number of kremlebots work in Russian media. Here they are called, as you noticed, "Lahta". As for me, it is not a big problem - they work following rigoruous rules and therefore can be easily detected. But this is very annoying to see similar template posts everywhere.
>anyone is entitled to patriotic feelings
Sure thing. From the other side, it is very suitable thing to explain destructive actions as they were "patriotic". For instance, Vlasov called himself Russian, but not Soviet patriot, nowadays a lot of peoples who say that "they are ashamed to be Russians" are also call themselves by the same word. But the obvious thing is that they are used as weapon in current informational warfare; one can critisize the regime but should understand that such actions are ineffective to change the regime and will make a harm to ordinary peoples if the regime falls. They speak "oh, so undemocratic, oh, human rights are violated again, omg, I feel feared to stay in Russia, blablabla", but..
>I know, another westerner telling Ruskis how to live
Let me explain why ordinary words about democracy look very ironically (no offence here and below, I just want to explain).
The key point to understand this is the modern history of Russia. After Soviet Unioin collapsed, it was obvious that we need to find another model to organize the regime and live. Voices about "democracy", "private property", "human rights" were everywhere - on TV, newspapers, books, etc. But what did really happen in 1990s? Political instability, war in Chechnya, total disaster in all spheres of life - industry, education, economics, etc. The country became very weak and almost everyone felt himself disoriented. And Russia`s rulers said that these things are almost ok because we killed Communism, totalitaristic regime and now we have democracy and free market. So, now you may realize that words "democracy", "free media" and "human rights" are extremely hard associated with words "misery" (because of economics fell into crisis), "humiliation" (because almost all "free" media did a lot of efforts to "prove" that the whole history of Russia is black hole of suffering and slavery) and "collapse" (because destruction of SU was perceived as a crash of entire Russian civilization). And now, what do you want to hear from typical Russian when you told to him about these nice things? The answer like "may you rot in hell with your fucking democracy, bastard" are the words that Russian thinks, but does not say. This is the reason why words about "death of democracy in Russia" from West are considered as a very good sign. And if somebody in Russia says smth about these things, he may be considered as brainwashed fool or traitor.
>Stanislav Petrov
They were a number of military officers who have prevented the launches of nuclear missiles, not only Petrov and his case.
>the work of fifth column
Their work is to destroy Russia or enslave it for West, nothing more. The fifth column are literally informational terrorists. One hundred years ago many highest rank officials in Russia were assassinated by Azef`s group. What can we see now? The obvious example is Navalny with his team. They speak "corruption", "don`t call him Dimon", "Putin`s palace", etc. So, they try to softly "assasinate" the officials what obviuosly lead us to political instability.
But from the Western point of view, they are heroes because Western journalists who reveal corrupted leaders are obviously do a great job. In Russia, they are considered as funny fools or idiots and their movies are very hard to be percieved seriously. Why? Because everyone knows that the regime is corrupted and this fact is ordinal.
>to organize in healthy opposition
>healthy opposition
>healthy
I lold. You can find some abominable examples of oppositionists in Russia. They again speak about democracy, corrupted Putin, bla-bla-bla. Can they offer realistic political program? Nope. Do you know unedited Tikhanovskay`s program, for instance? It looks like - we will forbid Russian language, we will withdraw from all unions with Russia, we will allow to trade land and so on. Yes, yes, after Maidan with the same things I surely believe in her best intentions, lol.
>no free media, no opposition, no democracy
See above. I`ll repeat - many, many Russian sincerely hate these things.
>who feel fear and hate
Oh, so pity, I am crying about them. FUCK THEM OFF.
Let me explain.
Consider an arbitrary speech of such "a person with good face" (this is the term to call a person with liberal views or oppositionist). They speak that the majority of Russians are so-called "bydlo" (i.e. just cattle) who support Putin and do not like democtratic values and they, "persons with good faces", are progressive minority. Did you catch it? Look into arbitrary interview with such person and you will find similar phrases. This is crucial to understand, you know, why they are easily can be called traitors and why majority of Russians will support this claim.
>endless opportunities for peace and co-operation with Ruskis and Europeans
Sure thing. And such opportunities had been fruitfully realized in 2010s.
As for me, I worked with western scientific community and this was deliciuos. But now, it seems that my academic career will go to another way.
bump
Mis sa mõtled Eesti vallutuse kohta?
>a Finnish anon.
тупая пизда не может без дозы внимания даже во время войны, лол
Hello finanon. Could you check your mail please?
bump
I'll be answering you as soon as I have some time to sit on PC, I've had it busy today. Hold on!
You mean the conquest done by Finnish alcohol tourists, or the ones done by Nazis & CCCP in 1944 -> ?
I will be answering this too later.
Sure thing, answering asap.
go shoot putler troops, you fat fuck
west anon please consider that mars people may not appreciate your colonization way
>Finnish
finish
>Russia`s intervention into US President election
I'm not expert in all-things-USA, and tbh I remember thinking to myself back in the days that they use Ruskis as a sheer "scapegoat".
Now that things have become more clear (I've paid attention to this phenomenon, read about it etc.) and seen it with my own eyes, I view it certain that Kreml's trolls vouched for Trump, but idk if Trump specifically ever asked for it (atleast it's not proven.) I wouldn't be too surprised tho, because didn't he have links to Kreml even before his career in politics? Also btw, if I'm not mistaken, also some Christian organisation in USA have similar kind of centers who did the spamming for him etc.
>ineffective to change the regime and will make a harm to ordinary peoples if the regime falls
But couldn't it also be argued, that if Putin's regime listened to western minded Russians, we wouldn't necessarily be in this situation? Don't you find it absurd to find west's intrinsic value to be viewed somehow negative? You might not like our culture, but there stands endless of opportunities for co-operation nonetheless. In economy, in science, in partnership as a whole.
Human rights violations might not sound a big thing, until you yourself are a target. Couldn't there, atleast hypothetically, exist a way that you could incorporate that everything to Russian system, without it being found as destructive, but instead beneficial? In the end it is the regular fellas such as you and me, who get the greatest benefit. Basically human rights could be viewed as a law meant to protect especially those, who have no power. (When I'm saying this, I fully realize that there are way more worse nations when it comes to this. China & North-Korea, for example.) In last thread I heard there are concentration camps in China already, and prolly no one can do shit about it.
Could it be that the regime is so "weak" in it's foundings, that it knows that the very things these democratic Ruskis vouch for, such as free media, would tear it apart? Because I know it can be viewed as a weakness, it's being used against us every day. All tho it cannot do much good, if the democracy is in a good shape. In this sense, the Trump's victory in USA, I wouldn't blame it all on Kreml trolls, no. The first hand reasons exists inside the USA.
Could it just be, that the Putin's regime has painted everything opposing himself as evil, even tho they would benefit the society? It's hard to understand how the democratic Ruskis could be threat to the people. As I've come to understood, there exists alot of corruption in Russia, and innocent people are suffering inside and outside of Russia because of the regime. Shouldn't the people have a right to oppose such a system?
>extremely hard associated with words "misery"
I've realized that. And as I've said, democracy is a long road. You cannot expect it to be complete in it's beginning. Besides, I understand why it's especially hard for Ruskis, because of different backgrounds and social groups. AND because there exists no good collective experience about democracy, but the opposite.
But how come, there ain't a similar association with dictatorship?
And yeah, as I've said it couples of times already, I have no answers how to repair the problems of Russia's system. And I do not view west as "innocent" (imho it's the worst possible mistake is happening right now, as Russia is basically getting isolated and left to the mercy of China.) All tho I agree that west must react, when they are literally facing a horror regime. Does there exist any other way than what we see now? In this sense, west's action can be viewed as desperate and necessity. There is a strong feeling that Putin needs to be stopped, and even guilt for not doing it earlier.
>enslave it for West
Are you sure about that? Don't you see any other reasons for it? If you will, do the comparison for Nazi-Germany. Was the people enslaved from the hands of Hitler 1945->?
Because one could argue, such a country & people that Ruskis are, cannot be enslaved in the first place. Democracy is by definition power of people, not taking it away from people. I have a sense that Ruski's view about it is not a realistic one.
>we will forbid Russian language, we will withdraw from all unions with Russia, we will allow to trade land
But why would anyone vote for such people?
>They speak that the majority of Russians are so-called "bydlo" (i.e. just cattle)
But what is the solution for such a people, who can't support Putin? To leave their people, and their fatherland? Or to submit to the will of their leader, who they oppose? I think this problem ain't going anywhere for a long time.
And look. If there only was other way to suggest than democracy. I get it too well, that Ruskis have a negative opinion about it. But what would solve the problems better than it, both inside and outside of Russia (that can be directly pointed to be a fault of the Putin's regime)? What else is there to suggest as a solution?
It's hard to predict at this point, most likely we should expect status quo. Both sides want to raise their stakes ahead of peace talks. Russia is aiming to take Mariupol + pocket the Ukrainians in Donbass. Ukraine is aiming to inflict even more casualties on the Russian army and push them back eventually.
In Russia, things about "intervention" were considered as fully absurd. However, our propaganda did not focused on the bots on salary who act againts Western countries, I can not remember any serious information about this. When Kelly interviewed Putin, the questions about intervention look like news from a parallel universe.
Another point is that social networks in Russia still are not considered as something crucial. Most of people, expecially more than 40 yo, do not find information from FB, Twitter, etc as something that they can really trust. It just something funny and informative but not "serious".
>Putin's regime listened to western minded Russians
And this will be considered as back to 1990s and Putin will lose the support of the majority of Russians. This is very crucial to understand. You know, Yeltzin`s speech with his "Communism is dead" and "God, bless America" in Congress is considered as treachery of Russia`s interests. Foreign minister in 1990s, Kozyrev, who spoke like "we were too focused on national interests" is a hated figure. Generals, who signed Hasavurt`s agreements, are claimed to be traitors. There are a huge number of examples where Russians found actions of the rulers bad for Russia in 1990s. You may surprised, but Putin was deadly critisized when he decided to join Russian to WTO, Bologna process and other international organizations. I know many peoples with a little bit "radical" views who claimed Putin as bad, very bad leader due to these actions. So, when you speak about West-oriented peoples in Russia, you should understand that they are not trusted by the most of Russians; moreover, such peoples in elite greatly annoy most conservative forces. So, don`t you find the situation is democratic? This is the choice of nation, in these terms.
>west's intrinsic value to be viewed somehow negative
You may find it funny, but I don`t. These values are considered as negative, moreover, deadly for Russia from 1990s. This is not the point for public debates, but most of peoples find words about democracy as something ritual, what they are have to say, just not to provoke anybody. Propagande of Western values had lead to comtempt of them, you know.
>might not like our culture
I just split culture from ideology. The culture is delicious but ideology is not the point to reflect seriously about this. It is interesting to understand how it works, say "wow, ok, I understood" and forget about it. These values and ideology are that we have to know to collaborate with West because we think that West a little bit crazy with his "democracy", so, we say "yes, yes, of course, democracy is cool and USA is the best democracy, just calm down, please" but don`t care. For why?
>In economy, in science, in partnership
This is the point of my personal concerns.
>the Putin's regime has painted everything opposing himself as evil
Oh, this is not fully true. Oppositionists politically killed themselves and did not earn a wide support for another reason - their core ideas and concepts were considered by the majority as very, very bad things and therefore the opposition could not conquer a trust of the most of Russians. When they spoke about democracy, they have been slowly killing themselves.
>until you yourself are a target
If someone become a target, everyone knows that it`s extremely hard to help such person. The anecdote I would like to say is the following - "Russia: when you learn programming language and read about how to correctly get awared with your co-prisoners". Yep, peoples know that penetential system is not deadly, but they do not care. I have read about 10 books written by former prisoners - they were deadly interesting, you know. The key thought you can learn from such books - you can not affect the system, so, shut up, please, this is not your business. Hmm, most of peoples agree.
But the crucial point why the human rights concept kills himself in Russia is the support of the minorities, especially LGBT. West can not did more to destroy the trust to this concept. Moreover, West goes to be considered as fully mad as USA strategic documents speak about "support LGBT rights across the globe is the priority target of our foreign policy". These words lead to the perception of West as insane.
>how the democratic Ruskis could be threat to the people
You did not clearly understand who are "democratic Ruskis" you are writing about. Recently I found an excellent example to explain what are the core ideas that will be a final point of such "democrats". You may use Google translate to read it https://rus.azattyq.org/a/filosof-ob-istokah-rossijskoj-agressivnosti/31751665.html or find academical papers of this author about "Russian schizo-fascism". That is the face of the oppostion.
And let me assure you that my views are not too radical. True radical views of most conservative forces look like the following.
You speak about LGBT rights? It`s propaganda, shut up. You speak about childfree? It would be better to shut up. Songs you sing are about "bad" values? Then you corrupt young peoples and make them stupid; so, we will cancel you. You want to promote e-learning? You are obsious foe and traitor and you place is in the camp. You watch Youtube too long? It is dangerous, you may become degenerate. TikTok? BAN IT! You support WHO/WTO/etc? You know the answer.
And so on.
Literally, it is almost citation, lol. And, you know, the only point of my disagreement is too radical methods such forces propose.
>there ain't a similar association with dictatorship?
Absolutely not. Five (or smth like that) years ago a social survey demostrated that Stalin is thought to be the best leader in Russia`s history.
>west must react, when they are literally facing a horror regime
Ohhh, this is very ironically. Democracy and other Western core political concepts are not considered here as common and universal, they are considered as another ideology that may be right or may not. Communists were assured that they bring freedom to oppressed nations and they were wrong. Western leaders may think that everyone across the globe suffers without democracy but they are wrong too. This is just an another intellectual weapon, a kind of faith, nothing more.
So, when Russian hears about "lack of democracy" in Iraq, he knows that Iraq will be soon destroyed for West interests. Russia`s regime with almost fully absence of any ideology describes the process in terms of interests, but not in terms measuring the level of democracy. I think that the best way to discuss Russia`s actions is to forget about all these concepts and to use Realpolitik terms like interests, motives, balance of interests, war forces and other "physical" values.
What do you think about it? From my experience, this approach was fruitful when I spoke with my Western friends. If you have any other ideas - just propose, please, I am really interested to understand your position. But I am assured that if we continue use ideological constructs the discussion will lead to nothing.
>enslaved from the hands of Hitler
Excellent example. Russian history shows that West is fundamental foe. We can have a peace and fruitful collaboration, for a while, but the confrontation is written in ages and no one can change this. It doesn`t matter who is another leader - Napoleon or Hitler and what is another main force - Teuton Order or USA, just another round of war. These are the Russian national myths, you know. So, West was always considered as deadly foe, this is the point that do not need any proofs in mass consiousness. Did you catch it? Putin was deadly criticized not due to conflict with West, but due to collaboration with West. Do you really think that it could be easily changed?
So, the modern history, 1990s clearly demostrated how USA tried to impose "democracy" in Russia, how USA via proxies supported terrorism in Chechya, how deadly reforms were developed with the help of American advisores (like Coch, for instance) and so on.
>Democracy is by definition power of people
Yep, we saw this democracy and democtratic leaders in 1990s. The only conclusion - democracy is a fake, fairy tail for dummies. I emphasize - if someone in Russia starts seriously speak about democracy he may be thought that he had a serious mental problems or just brainwashed.
>But why would anyone vote for such people?
The edited program was exteremely less radical, at least for this reason.
>what is the solution for such a people, who can't support Putin?
Shut up and dance, at least, it will be funny. I am serious - they can not change the system. They can not infiltrate the system. Their propaganda did not show fruitful results. Any potential leaders, like Navalny, has no power now. So, with the current events, the regime will become more rigorous and there is no way even to widespread the Western propaganda.
>what would solve the problems
What problems do you exactly mean? Let`s define them to discuss further.
For your knowledge, I am not a fierce putinist, hater of Western culture or isolationist. I recognize the enormous potential of West-Russia collaboration,I saw it and I has participated in it, and I am really sad about desctruction of these peacuful and fruitful interactions.
Lol, while I`ve been typing the post, the latest news were about Youtube ban in Russia.
bump
.
Up
Yeah I understand why it might seem absurd to you. Look, if I had heard some years ago, that there will be pandemic coming, and Kreml be spreading anti-vac propaganda all over world via hired trolls, I would've found that ridiculous. But what do you know? We live in a fucked up world.
>"we were too focused on national interests"
I understand, that would cause outrage in any part of the world to see a politicians talk like that, in west also. (And tbh, we've seen politics like that in Finland also, for example when talking about solidarity towards other EU-countries.)
But can it be also argued, that choices made out of national interests only, will lead any country to be curled inwards? I mean, sometimes it can be hard for leaders to justify for people, why they have to make choices against short-term national interest, even if they were good for the future.
I remember how Putin was in the beginning of his presidency. He seemed progressive, democratic and he seemed to bring promise about rooting out corruption. I remember seeing this one interview, where he talks about (british) monarchy. He calls it out being undemocratic. We've come far away from those days, and he seems to be totally different man nowadays.
>The culture is delicious but ideology is not
Maybe this is something that I'm trying to point out here. It's not like Ruskis should feel so threatened about the western standards. Nothing can really be forced upon your people. It's up to Ruskis to decide. One could think of it to be logical, that ideally you adopt the working parts to your culture, and use them for your benefit. Now I view the situation to be like Ruskis opposing everything just because it's coming from west.
And tbh, from European standards, USA's democracy looks kinda shady. (I just personally find it odd if anyone finds USA as an example of working democracy.)
>you can not affect the system, so, shut up, please
Yeah this one I've understood. Children are not necessarily raised to support the regime, but more like survive the regime so they would have a change for decent life.
>These words lead to the perception of West as insane.
It's not like USA would have to be listened in such things. And tbh, I'd find it odd if LGBT-questions would stand in the way of any partnership.
How I personally find these "woke"-phenomenons, they get alot of coverage in media because they are so absurd and non-normative. One could even argue, that majority of people in the west finds the subject as kinda silly.
If you wonder why the west doesn't oppose such phenomenons more loudly, I guess the answer is: why would anyone waste their time opposing such a things, when they are not away from anyone, if they make someone's life better? Besides, I'd like to believe that in the end it's up to science to lead the way in these questions. I think that history has already taught that us regular fellas shouldn't stand too much in the way of evolution.
And tbh, I understand how you view the west's situation, but I think you are looking at the most craziest of woke-/minority-phenomenons, which hardly define our culture at all. They only define the most craziest corner of it, which is far away from the whole truth. Tbh how I've viewed this, is how the putinists paint the west in their propaganda.
>social survey demostrated that Stalin is thought to be the best leader in Russia`s history.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for this? I'd like to read the paper.
>"lack of democracy" in Iraq
I might want to point out, that there were an actual lack of democracy in Iraq. Before the US-Iraq war started, we had refugees coming to Europe, because they were hunted by S. Hussein's regime. When I'm saying this, I don't mean that I supported Iraq war. But then again, I know Iraqs who did support it, because they had lost relatives because of Hussein.
But yeah, I know, there's a lot of hypocracy involved when you are going to "free people" and the first thing that we see is big US oil companies going over.
But then again, is there a reason to judge all west because of what US does? I might add, that Europe often is the one to pay the price for USA's mistakes. We've took huge amounts of refugees because of USA's wars.
>Russian history shows that West is fundamental foe.
Couldn't the history be read in a way, that there's lessons to be learned how to avoid such things in future? I could imagine western leaders to be extremely frustrated over this situation. West doesn't view Russia as a fundamental foe.
>What problems do you exactly mean?
We can start from the 1) Russo-west relation. What would be the solution to fix them?
2) Ruski's neighbors sovereignty being respected by Russia
3) Internal problems, such as the corruption & the people who oppose Putin to have a decent life in Russia (this is an internal problem, I realize that, but I'd imagine this too can be tracked down to lack of a system (free media & democracy) which takes care of their well being.) Not all of them are western spies, you know?
For your knowledge, even you were a fierce putinist, I wouldn't blame you. Instead I'd be interested to hear your view about things. I'm here to learn, and the most of the views I've heard so far have been critical towards putinists.
I'd be somewhat happy if this stays as somewhat localized conflict, and wouldn't escalate. (Or well, maybe happy is a wrong word, concidering that there's a war going on..)
Then again this can be also viewed as a continuation, and it's only a matter of time whose next of Ruski's neighbors. Also, there's a possibility that this launches on a scenario, where the next one isn't even a Ruski's neighbor (China-Taiwan war, for example.)
Oh, you still here, come to some understanding ?
>via hired trolls
As for me, I did not fully realize the huge scale how Kremlin trolls are used against Western states, it is very, very interesting and surprising.
>outrage in any part of the world
Recently I saw a handful of Sara Vagekneht`s speeches, this is exactly the point she mentioned - the lack of sovereignty of Germany as how Germans are hardly affected by US policy. I also watched Orban`s speeches, he speak about how EU common interests make harm to Hungary wishes.
>they have to make choices against short-term national interest
Yep, sure thing. Putin lost a lot of people trust when he decided to implement reform which increased age when peoples got thier money from pension funds. Bu the situation a mean above is about key national interests; they were partially discarded in order to "buy" Western favour as well as favour of so-called international community (the term become ironic euphemism for West about decade ago).
>to bring promise about rooting out corruption
The key thing why he gained trust is due to his promises about relentless war against terrorism in Chechnya and increasing national wealth. It again crucial to understand that the corruption in Russia is not a problem which is widely discussed and this silence about corruption is almost national trait. Most famous Russian writers in 18th and 19th centuries wrote about this and from those epochs the situation did not greatly change. An ordinary Russian says - they are thieves, ok. I know, so, what do you want to say? Everyone knows.
Putin has changed since he became president. Early he was a little bit touched by democratic ideology and said that "we need a democracy, we need a free market, we need to keep the human rights". This is not due to his firm believes about this, no, this is due to 1990s mainstream political discourse in Russia. What do you want from KGB spy? He was never been a democratic leader and he had never acted in this way. These words he spoke in early 2000s were a some sort of ritual. While Russia have been rising in power, this surface image became unnecessary.
>Ruskis opposing everything just because it's coming from west
Partially this is due to Soviet era isolationism. But the situation if far more difficult. Briefly, in deepest feelings, Russians consider using of West culture and Western standards as a some kind of treat thich may lead to lose of national identity. This is very, very complicated situation. The bright and expressive example - recently I saw the news about some politician who demands to make signboards in Russian language only.
>more like survive the regime so they would have a change for decent life.
You consider the situation as deadly and exteremely grief and this is not true. So, I did the same when I write about US`s promotion of LGBT rights and I see an analogue here. If I will loudly speak about how Putin is bad and he is a dictator, there is a chance that I may be cancelled; but what will happen if I will loudly speak in US that Black peoples just statistically have lower IQ and more likely to be a criminals?
>how the putinists paint the west in their propaganda
Oh, the putinists make much less to show how the West is bad. As I already mentioned, their propaganda is focused on historical manipulations and geopolitical issues, I did not find any ideological constructs here. But there are exist much more radical forces, writers and public persons, who blame Putin as a weak and too tolerant to West. At least, the two main forces of them are Russian Orthodoxal Church and traditionalists (sometimes they are Comminists) with fierce hatred to all the Western. These forces are radical enough to be able to often oppose to the regime and sometimes they are winning. And while liberal non-system oppositionisnts are really in risk and they could be defeated with support of the majority of Russian (because they literally hate most of liberal ideas), any serious attack on these forces will be deadly for Putin. Such radicals sometimes want the blood of higher rank officials due to they are not to confrontal to the West. It should not be said what will happen if the regime starts to hear them more. This is the real opposition with wide support en masse; so, when someone speaks about Navalny as the leader of the oppostion, it is literally nonsence. As for me, I prefer to name him modern "soft" terrorist.
>LGBT-questions would stand in the way of any partnership
But they may. Here, for instance, phrase likes "gay parade i your town is a deadly blow on our culture and sovereignity" are very popular. By the most Russians, these things are often considered like a sign of mental issues. Just to say - almost nobody will hunt and cancel gays and so on, people say that "it`s ok, untill he don`t speak about". But if such a person would like to loudly say something about promotion LGBT rigths, the reaction may be furious.
>a source for this
I do not have a link to academic paper, only this one, and only in Russian https://www.rbc.ru/politics/16/04/2019/5cb0bb979a794780a4592d0c
>is there a reason to judge all west because of what US does?
The situation is the following. Anyone here is assured that US is the leader of the West and other states just act in the way to promote US` interests. For instance - why Germany was so offensive against Nord Stream 2? The explanation given by the propaganda - Germany is deadly depends on US and therefore is forces to act againts itself. The propagandistic cliché - "shout from the Department of State" which force European states do what they don`t want.
And now, while Western states act as one with sanctions and restrictions, no one has any doubt about the current point.
>West doesn't view Russia as a fundamental foe
A lot of books of Western thinkers and politicians are exactly about how Russia is dangerous and must be stopped. The key point - this is Obama who spoke about "American exceptionality", this is Kissinger who wrote like "we must fight for democracy across the globe", this is Bzeshinsky with words about Heartland, this is Fukuyama with his "end of history" and so on. Are you serious here? At least, after decades of figthing with SU, in mass consiousness, Russia had became a deadly foe. Really, I do not understand your arguments here.
>1) Russo-west relation.
I saw recent Johnson`s speech about "if we will allow Russia to conquer Ukraine, the freedom across the globe will be in danger". What the fuck he is speaking about? I heard this in the following way: "If Russia will destroy Ukraine`s military potential and will set pro-Russian regime, we will show to the world that we are very weak and funny, so, everyone will say us - gfy, we do not want to suffer from your Western world order any more". So, there is enormous misunderstanding: if one relies on ideological terms and another person use Realpolitic terms, how do can they speak at all?
In Russia, these ideological terms are considered as a fairy tail to hide real interests.
>2) Ruski's neighbors sovereignty being respected by Russia
It is very simple - Russia will not abandon traditional spheres of interests - most of post-Soviet states, at least. Russia can not and will not allow them to be a hostile regimes. Any attempt to make them dangerous for Russia is considered as deadly treat and responce will be crushing. Moreover, Putin and his team (and as a heritage - a new generation that will rise in power in 2030s) are possessed by the Soviet revanshism. They are already started the processess of the re-integration of Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Armenya, partially - Tadzhikistan, and these processes will continue. The key thought of any Russia rulers - Russia may exist only as empire.
>3)
>the corruption
Look, almost all Russian participated in this in 90th and earlier.
You want a doctor to be more carefully with you? Pay a little, just a couple of chocolates to show that you respect his labour. You fucked up with road rules? A little payment will kill the problem. You have a friend with power? He may help you, if you really need. You gain a power and you have a friend? Help him and he will be your ally, for a while, at least. You need your paper to be published and you know the editor? Just make a phone call, he will decide the problem.
And I saw this from my childhood. Lol, I remember the situation - when I was 12, I was ill and therefore was hospitalised; when I was ready to go home, I ask the doctor - please, write in your documents that I was here for three days more, just a little formal thing (having this, I could stay at home and did not go to school); the answer was - what I would gain from you?
You do not understand the scale of the problem. I worked with peoples who study the corruption in Russia and the most shocking conclusion - with some balance, the corruption do not destroy the regime, it makes it stronger.
>people who oppose Putin to have a decent life in Russia
Most of Russian do not find here a great problem. But there are a huge number of media sources with great hystery when some oppositionist is enprisoned. Literally, one mey say - you fought against the regime, so why are surprised now, are you idiot?
>free media & democracy
Free media - with the Western point of view? They are not greeted here and never were. Democracy - with pro-Western politicians? Here it would be considered as deadly treat for Russia.
>Not all of them are western spies
Sure thing. But, as an illustrative example, feministic organizations and LGBT supporters or human right fighters are considerer as a persons who are not spies, of course, but their actions are harmfull, so, let`s ban them. So, we call them, you know, the fifth column.
>even you were a fierce putinist
Oh, I almost forget to say. Above you described your political position and political views, so, it would be honest if I`ll describe mine.
bump
Remember me, the anon from st.petersburg which sent you pics of it?
I am back there, sending your some pics of petersburg's centre
Btw, there are a lot of anti war signs drawn in the centre. Looks like Petersburg is a really antiwar city
Hiiohoi halojatapäivää!
Ofc I remember you. Sup? How's life?
I think that the anti-war movement in Russia just might be our best hope atm. Wouldn't be exactly the first time in history, if you think of it. Hippies did their part to stop the Vietnam War. Idk if the comparison is fair tho, because in USA hippies could protest somewhat "freely" without the fear of their well being being affected.
I recently saw a news saying that 15,000 protesters have been arrested so far. Idk how exact this figure is tho.
Hey! I'll be answering you later today, when I have some spare time to write another wall of text. :)
I want to clear something tho: I'm not much of a political person. My background is in science, and it's found ideal not to participate & keep distance, to retain objectivity. My goal is to understand you Ruskis better, and sometimes that might be easiest to do with comparison of systems. This doesn't necessarily mean I'm opposing all-things-in-Russia, it's just important to keep the dialogue going on and understanding the differences.
>I think that the anti-war movement in Russia just might be our best hope atm
No, we already discussed it.
>I recently saw a news saying that 15,000 protesters have been arrested so far. Idk how exact this figure is tho.
No, there was no more than couple hundreds protestors at all. With all opposition behind bars there is no one left to organise them.
>Hippies did their part to stop the Vietnam War
Why hippies in the US and not republicans/reds in Empire ?
>My background is in science
Some of my former colleagues (who are in academy, I mean) recently said me that some of Western institutions has stopped or even cancelled collaboration with them. So, another point is that all Russian universities were excluded from QS ranking system.
I may guess that you negatively look at this situation (so, as I do), but what do think about this?
The Vietnam had gone on for 10 years. Hippies were not very efficient. Expect here the same.
>Ofc I remember you.
Glad to hear about that, heh. I am good. Yesterday I was in the city centre taking the photos, and i've had a pretty good walk.
>I think that the anti-war movement in Russia just might be our best hope atm
Maybe, but the problem is that the Russian goverment is way more authoritharian so it couldnt be forced to change without any violence in the streets, and the only way and road to changes lies only through clashes with police and street-fights. What we see, that the current protesters and the anti-war movement is completely incapable to use any violence towards the pro-goverment forces and the police, and as the things will continue that way, the goverment will continue to get more authoritarian until one day it turns into a completely totalitarian system, and the things wont change in a good way
cool pics thanks
Hi, bro! this is The Cuckoo-kun. Sorry for late answer - really busy times on my job, but finally've found a free hour. I'll copy most parts of your last message to remind u, what we talked abut.
>Maybe happiness should be viewed more as a basis to fuck up in life. I mean, wouldn't it be kinda logical? That's the point in your life when you possibly have the most resources (all the basic needs are probably filled and you feel safe) to take the risk, and even suffer.
I think it's another our natural mechanism, that helped to survive our type. If our ancestors stoped to move forward every time, they achieved a goal, we couldn't exist now. I mean, that there is a fuct, that after dopamine raised, it's always going down deeper, to motivate u to start new acting to rise it again. And as with drugs, every next time, u'll need more amount of dose to feel same feelings after new achievement. That's why coming to new job it always so exciting and new skills that you achieved there makes u happy, but after few months/years, when work becomes more automatic and u got everything, that u could from this place, u loosing motivation, no matter how much money u wage.
And that's why u should always choose speciality not only by the income, u could wage their, but mostly by the sphere, that u interesting a lot. Goal achievement - just a moment. The way to achieve it could me routine of months and years. And if u don't like the process, u'll never achieve high goal. That's why most of peoples, we admiring, don't talk about money. Even great investors, like Buffet, never talking bout money, but about math and wisdom of life. Actually, this is a good way to differentiate a good specialist in spheres, what u don't understand (sometimes we need it, for hiring a lawyer for example). They don't try to sure, that the things they now too complicated for your mind, so u must pay them more for their job. No. They try to explain their field of knowledge on your level for you to understand, for what really u should pay them.
>Maybe it comes apparent, as an evolution mechanics. We feel the mistakes of our parents (sometimes we suffer from them), and as a result we start to oppose them. It only makes sense from the perspective of evolution. We try to make their mistakes right, creating a better changes for our species to survive. (Btw, funny side note for a side note: nowadays, there is some evidence that animals can have already in their DNA the "lessons learned from our parents.")
I have another explanation of that phenomenon, what I'm calling my own theory of games. When children growing up, they learning to live not by words, they listening in school, or from their parents, but mostly by behaviour of their parents (or another peoples, that keeping child's life in first years). This parent's behaviour is reflection of their profession and life principles. And children's adopting to this models of behaviour by choosing better role for parent's satisfaction. And in most cases this is role of "victim" in any demonstration. And during growing, a kid keeping and only this model in his mind, cause it becomes the most surviving for him. And after growing up, human reproduces only this model in any relationships in his life. Like, you know, most of serial maniacs were victims of raping or family violence in childhood.
And same, like lawyer will use same words and technique to chill his kid, that he use to control a criminal guy, cause he learned for many years it. Professional deformation, that becomes family karma.
>Aye. That's right. But evolutional psychology can imho explain the social life to only some extent, mostly the mechanics of it, such as the hormones. The most basic of the questions of social life: "What bonds people?", Georg Simmel asked this more than 150 years ago, and it is still being thought today. And yes, I realize it is easy to explain it all from the evolutionary perspective, but I'm not fully satisfied with the explanation. What I find fascinating about this, is that every possible organism seems to be actively finding their counterpart, and more; everything wants, or needs, to connect. It's the essence of nature, which we see also manifesting in humans, but not only humans, but in everything that lives. Besides that, we continue to create better and better web, a connection between people, and news form for it. There has to be a word for that universal power, maybe even love is a wrong and undermining term, but as a humans it's hard to figure out term for the concept. Creativity is only a means or manifestation for it. Maybe in this sense the concept of love comes closer to concept of creation of new life - the essence of life. (Sorry if I get too messed up here, my field of science ain't exactly the most logical ones, so I'm destined to seek the answers chaotically.)
You know, the strongest relationships becomes from totally different peoples. It follows from my last posts. Primitive organism don't need another with same properties, cause it don't help to achive new environment. To achive new environment u need another one with totally different properties but with same "connectors". That's why from genetic theory most surviving offspring comes from racemixing.
Actually, I found more philosophy explanation of that in small article couple years ago. I'll translate it and send to you email. I think it worth to be shared.
>One of the explanations I've heard about rational psychology: "Suicide is a humanbeing making a calculation about his expected value of future life. When it turns negative, people will kill themselves." Could this then be scaled to societal level also? Us manifesting into destructive power to change our surroundings, even if it meant alot of death. But can we also activate the destructive powers, when it's not even needed? And can the destructive powers be eliminated or suppressed, when they are needed the most?
I read about different types of reproduction in nature. And suicide and mass killing is two different forms of that. But it's all depend of resources, that population needs, and what separated element think to be important. The example of suicidal type could be lemmings or salmons, where some part of population dying by themselves during migration in search for better place for growing. "The killer's" type of reproduction is when one animal could kill another if he think, that they don't have enough resources for both on that territory. In most cases that "victim" becomes the weakest animal in pride, cause of it's useless for pride surviving. It's justifying murder.
That's why I think, that serial killers or dictators shouldn't be just killed or just claimed as mad persons. Society must investigate, what becomes the trigger for their destruction behaviour, for avoid this cases in future.
>It has been speculated, that Hitler's ultimate plan was never to win, but to destroy as much as possible. If you look at the path he chose, any rational human being could've made the calculation "this isn't going to end well." He muted all the people around him, who opposed him, as if he didn't even want to hear them, and actually he walked thru the path of destruction using a lot of resources for no one to stop him. It was like his surroundings was telling him to stop, but he chose otherwise. Atleast on subconscious level he must've understood how it's all going down. ((Btw: I would pay a lot to know how, what kind of dreams did he see. I'd be curious to know.)
I'm really sure, that the war contusion and jail maked him fanatically patriotic. And all he done was just a stupid tryings to avoid it to another patriots, like who he thinks he is. Ofc this patriotism was just his idealistic picture, that his brain used to justify his actings. Like, brain of regular person can't accept that some personal tragedies could be their own mistake, and they try to find any rational explanation, why outer powers want to stop him.
>When it comes to pandemics btw, there was this one roman emperor (can't exactly remember his name, I'll try to check it out later) who thought that plagues is natural and inseparable part of politics (back in the days they were more near and familiar.)
Well, actually it is. As I already told, if u want to explain any new thing, u should separate it to some functional elements and investigate more primitive part. We know now few cases, when isolated primitive tribes, fully died after contacts with modern humans, because of new infections, that our immunity already achieved to block, but for them this infections becomes new mortal viruses. We r leaving now in moment on biggest human population for all history, and it becomes too hard to control all genetic and mental changes. And hard to control sharing of it in some part of the world.
So situation like this pandemic is just a marker, that we should find better decisions for living that big amount of human mass on same planet. Because, u know, next time it could be more dangerous virus, but we'll be more ready for it, if we investigate today's tragedy better.
>Then again, imho we shouldn't undermine the possibility of us becoming enslaved. I cannot fully rule out the possibility of totalitarianism taking over. What if the new vision ain't always winning, but the one, that has most destructive power? Can we be, in the end, be enslaved for all eternity? It's a scary thought.
Don't even think about it. Look at Putin's yacht and palace. Look how arabian sheikhs living, using all inventions of western civilization for their comfort. U can cheat your brain by ideology for sometime, but u can't cheat evolutional mechanisms of your brain. Brain will always win against muscles. Even if muscles win for some time, like we see now in Ukraine, this could be only a step for smart peoples to invent more powerful mechanisms of soft power. Same as in brain mechanisms - we need period of depression to motivate us achieve new goals to rise dopamine.
>Ruger Hauer is one of my favorites, when I'm on that exact mood. It is actually funny how you described it - seems like the old cliche is true of music being an international language. The first album's name "Se syvenee syksyllä" = "It deepens in the fall/autumn." (meaning the emotions which arise when the summer is over, and the winter gets more and more under your skin.)
Yes, in our climate autumn - is favorite season for poets. I think, cause it means "death" of nature, leaf fall and grass becomes road dirt. This pushes us to think about all, that dying in us and around us. Moments, when we think about meaning of everything we losing.
Good morning, Cuckoo-kun!
I'll be answering you & others ASAP, probably around midday when I get to have a break. It's been really hectic after the weekend. Sorry for letting you wait.
Have a good day everyone!
Dw bout time, take as much time as u need.
Have a good day!
Hey,
I have been checking this site since the war started and it seems that there are a lot of really bloodthirsty Russians in some of the threads, but then there are others like this one which has actual conversations.
Are most of the bloodthirsty shouters kremlinbots or is there actually such widespread imperialistic sentiment among Russians?
I have been checking this site since the war started and it seems that there are a lot of really bloodthirsty Russians in some of the threads, but then there are others like this one which has actual conversations.
Are most of the bloodthirsty shouters kremlinbots or is there actually such widespread imperialistic sentiment among Russians?
kys glownigger
Not a very nice thing to say.
I'm as confused as you are. There are surely kremlinbots on 2ch, but I've had conversations with people with this mindset in closed groups on telegram before. They're severely brainwashed by militaristic propaganda (Prigozhin and Wagner PMC related resources). They think they're some sort of a third position against Putin and against liberal opposition, but in fact they support Putin's militaristic and oppressive regime. Most of them didn't serve in the army and can't be conscripted due to poor health and schizophrenia, but it doesn't prevent them from thinking that they're some part of the Russian military.
YOU ARE NEXT, BITCH
I could show u the real picture.
1) One of our political activist tryed to make phone opinion research. His voluntiers called to 31000 random abonents. And more then 29000 of them dropped the phone, when heard, that they should tell their opinion about war. So, when u listen about level of supporting this war, u should always keep in your mind, that this amount counted of small amount of russian population, that don't scare to tell their position about it.
2) Picrelated - post in tg public about marketing. In that public they usually discussing any commercials and pr-videos. Because this public not about politic, it's not really interesting to kremlin trolls. So u can see, by emodjies, how civilians value kremlin war propaganda.
This could be interesting for u too.
The Cuckoo-kun
Confidence born of ignorance. Nobody benefits from the current situation.
Thanks, that's certainly an informative image. But then again, I guess mostly young people use telegram? It would be nice to see a real stats done with a truly random sample, but getting something like that is probably impossible in the current situation.
Russian public opinion is really fragmented. Main groups can be defined as following:
1) Russia does everything right. Nationalism must be stopped
1a) Same but with more agression toward "nazis"
2) War is not the right decission, but Russia was forced to attack due to NATO advances
3) Putin and his cronies are occupants, but russian citizens can't do nothing against them. This is their war and they should be stopped if possible
3a. Same but also Putin is supported by majority of population, so this is war of Putin, his cronies and mind dominted normies
4) All the Russians bear guilt for death and suffering of ukraine nation, and we must ask for forgiveness and pay maximum reparations for it
Which of these ideas are dominating is hard to tell, but you can easily find non-bot supporters of each of these.
As for bots - it's hard to understand who is bot, and for whom it works. Both Ukranian and Russian political forces of different persuasions employ bots and quasibots - intellectually challenged supporters who repeat what they've been told by leaders.
Hey, buddy. You know what? I miss Suomi so freakin much. Back in the day I used to spend my weekends at least twice a month in Imatra, Oulu or Helsinki. Today finnish bernds gonna get offensive even if someone that friendly like myself gonna hang out in your cities. Russian flag with 78th region equals mucho hate from locals.
Stay strong, join NATO, drink vodka, Kind regards, pal. Visit Pietari at least from time to time.
How widespread is the idea of NATO being a threat to Russia? At least among my Finnish and other European friends (mostly Scandinavian and German) nobody things of NATO as an offensive maneuver against Russia, but as a deterrent for Russian imperialistic ambitions towards it neighbors.
And when Putin talks about the threat of NATO it is thought as Russia fearing to lose it's capability of threatening it's neighbors to do as it wants and not as an actual militaristic threat.
You've just quoted every single person in Russia who is 40 years old or younger. Nobody thinks that NATO is a threat to russians.
It's really popular among Putin supporters.
The main idea is the following:
Free markets are a scam. Real power lies in weapons, and when big guys want to control market - they deploy military. Examples include all the US wars in oil-rich countries.
NATO is viewed as aggressive power in region - Yugoslavia conflict is often cited along with carpet bombing.
US/EU meddling in Ukraine internal affairs is seen as act of agression, because it resulted in strong anti-russian sentiment.
So it is assumed that NATO will grow in power and influence and through either political influence or direct military action will subdue(and maybe split) Russia to have total control of natural resources.
I think you overestimate the european support in russia. I work with children 9-18. And some of my pupils recently started telling me about how Russia is on the defensive. While you can dismiss their views as childish misconception, I think they were told that by their parents most likelly, who are around 30-40y old.
That's probably cause we live in different societies. All my friends and colleagues used to earn big buck during Russia's heyday that lasted pretty much until feb 24th. Now we've dropped signifficantly in our income due to... you know... sPeCiAL OpErATiON.
Now it all makes no sense. We've got cash that can buy nothing. If you've ever planned to buy a new house, car or have a nice trip in Europe or US. Well, that's impossible now.
>But then again, I guess mostly young people use telegram?
Not at all. All business, including state organizations using it. Actually even low-technically educated and old persons started to use telegram for last month, cause whatsapp could be banned, cause it's product of Colonel whatsapp Meta.
>probably impossible in the current situation
it's impossible in any times of Putin's power in Russia. But tg could be used as a source of opinion of peoples that really matter for Russian economic and political activity. All other - just a hostages of that regime. Speak with them bout politic is a kind of speaking with prisoners about freedom. Actually, good picture of what we have here, could be shown by text, that OP, summarised by our long conversation in last thread:
>For Ruski, it's not necessarily about supporting Putin. It might be more exact to say, that it's about surviving the horror regimes, which have arised before, and Putin's is not even the worst of them. Some pray for his death to come ASAP, whereas some reflect their hopes in him of him being the one uniting Ruskis and protecting them from the cultural trauma. Which, in the essence is that you are too different from each other to live inside the same huge country. Ruskis as people are too colorful under the same flag, and even violence is found suitable way to keep it all together, because it's their beloved fatherland, which many thinks deserves better.
>There could be ways to stop it all from happening, in theory, but the institutions and organizations are being hold hostage by the regime, which is captured by their own vision how this all should be kept together. Maybe that's the main motivator of Putin, which for many outsiders is easy to forget: to keep the Russia united, by whatever means possible. It's not ideal, but he might have not a choice, else than act like past leaders - which he might despise btw - and do nothing, and just watch it all to crumble down.
>There exists a possibility of trying a new way of things, which might be even inevitable, but everyone remembers at what cost the change might come. It might mean their or their loved's ones death or other forms of suffering even. And for them it's nothing but understandable to be passive, because that equals preserving the nation from inner conflict.
>From the leaders perspective, the war seems like only option to hold it all together. Russia needs an external enemy, to not feel the pain from the inner wound bleeding, which seems paradoxical, but it might be the only desperate option to save people from inner conflict. For them - elite - this also means the preservation of their own lives from the worst case scenario. For people the fear of having to fight against their own people is greater, than the pain of accepting their leaders finding the external enemy.
>And then there are the Ruskis, who always saw the possibilities to change everything, but they don't have the power, and instead they have to cope with the madness they see around them. And that's the wisest thing they can do, if then not to risk their lives for possibly "nothing." Maybe this is the part that conflicts the mind of every Ruski, some more than others.
Sup
Maybe somebody has already talked about it in this or previous thread but, nevertheless, i will share my opinion towards russian-ukrainian with you.
The first thing you have to understand about Russia is that it has an abnormally large number of bloodthirsty orcs among the population. I will say like 1/3 of people oppose the war, 1/3 don't really care and just think everything is going to be good coz "they up there know what they'are doing" and 1/3 sincerely supports it and wants the apocalypse. The problem is that commies were not finished there in 90s. In fact, we have had 3 main political groups there then. Commies, pro-western soyjack libs and nationalsts. And, as well as in Baltic states and Poland. in 90s nationalsts got a choice: get friends with commies or liberals. In Poland, Lithaunia and so on they chose the second option and you what is there now. But here in Russia nationalsts made a union with commies and created shizophrenic ideology combining the most disgusting elements of communism with pseudo-patriotic discourse and religious obscurantism. And just after Putin had taken rule over the country there has begun a rapid process of re-stalinisation. It has been being especially notable since maybe 2012. And all these 10 years the media in Russia from morning to evening were engaged only in those that incited hatred for Ukrainians, Europe and America. And the scale of this is such that even the Nazis with their kike obsession will seem like angels to you. So we have what we have
P..S. I'm not Ukrainian and can prove it by sup with passport
>I did not fully realize the huge scale how Kremlin trolls are used against Western states
Idk how it's in Russia, but I could imagine most of it being centered at your opinions. This is only a speculation tho, but I think Putin's regime finds you as his worst enemy (and again, your opinion the most "precious."
>Orban`s speeches, he speak about how EU
He's typical right-wing populist, I assume. These are the kind of guys which we see Kremlin trolls support everywhere in the west. They are often being accused of "shady" relations to Russia, but imho I think the operating logic may very well be, that they get the "advertisement" even without asking and for free.
>this silence about corruption is almost national trait.
I have a bad feeling, that in future we just might just learn a thing or two for Russia, which people didn't really know, but all the time it happened right before our eyes. In past thread there were talk about innocent people being jailed for years, or then they being guilty of "wrong political opinion." Does anyone know the real numbers, who've been behind the bars as innocent?
>He was never been a democratic leader and he had never acted in this way
I believe that some, if not most, of it was an act & mask for western leaders to have relations with him.
>lead to lose of national identity.
Tbh, I think this is a matter of concern everywhere. How to hold on to your traditions and such, in a world of globalization and fast cultural evolution?
A thought: Japan. They have their traditions secured and valued. Maybe that's the key. At the same time we see Japan being arguably nr. 1 in adopting new technology & behavior in their culture. They simply don't feel the threat of new, and I guess that's mostly because they can feel safe about their roots not being forgotten.
>deadly and exteremely grief and this is not true.
I am leaning on the stories heard by Ruskis in how I picture the situation. It might be that majority doesn't feel Russia such a bad place, but then again, even if 1% of Ruskis get to feel the most dark side of the regime, that makes huge amount of people.
I am not sure if that's fair comparison tho. If you criticize Putin, you are probably aiming your critic towards the system & structures. If you are criticizing black people, you are aiming your critic towards group of people (minority group to be exact, which west is kinda struggling on with, because of past.)
>who blame Putin as a weak and too tolerant to West.
But isn't this the exact problem: if this is the only kind of opposition to be allowed, and western-minded opposition is claimed to be traitors & western spies? Doesn't it easily lead to situation where we are now?
>By the most Russians, these things are often considered like a sign of mental issues
We've been there, actually not too many decades ago (it was literally a mental illness.) But as I said, for me personally, it feels weird how big of a issue this is for Russia. I mean, I get it, it's against the cultural norms, so it used to be here. And there are still people (christians, etc.) who judge it in west. But for average westerner the thing isn't so much that they would vouch for the LGBT-things. More like, who gives enough of a fuck to use their time & energy to oppose such trivial matters. Live and let live, you know? In the end it's not so much about LGBT-rights, but individual rights. Pride-parades and such in the end are a small minority phenomenon, which is found somewhat harmless. Everyday life of a regular westerner is affected less than 0 by such things.
>why Germany was so offensive against Nord Stream 2
It has been feared that Putin's regime can use the energy dependency as a sort of a weapon. I mean, such things shouldn't be dependant on the mood of relatively small group of people.
>A lot of books of Western thinkers and politicians are exactly about how Russia is dangerous and must be stopped
But is this, then again, directly related to Russia being a dictatorship? When westerners are talking about how democracy in Russia could be beneficial for west, it's not like they view it as bad for Russian people. It's the vice versa. Ofc, not many westerners necessarily get that average Ruskis hate democracy. There ain't enough dialogue between regular people. It's been thought that the ones who hate it, have been brainwashed. It can be easily argumented why the dictatorship only benefits the elite, whereas the democracy would be beneficial for regular people.
>freedom across the globe will be in danger
One of our foreign policy experts put it well: the west is polyphonic. It consists of many many different democratic groups. For Ruski, it might feel schizophrenic almost, like "what do they really want?"
Some analysts feel like, that much of the continuation of things, are being determined in Ukraine today. If Russia is being "successful" in Ukraine, do we see next Ukraine sooner or later? Or could it be more healthy path for Russia to stop (or be stopped) trying to make decisions for their neighbors/other countries using death & destruction as a means?
For average westerners this might seem like even more mindless, because prolly many have thought that developed countries fight their wars nowadays in field of economy & democracy, the free will being in the center of things (which ofc can be manipulated, I get it. But still, it's a whole lot of better option than being forced.)
>Russia may exist only as empire.
Can you elaborate your view on this? Also could it be, that this cannot work without the will of people? I mean. I kinda see it as dysfunctional relationship, if people don't want to join the empire, but instead want to fight to get rid off it's influence. World is growing more and more democratic by the day. I'm not sure if that can be stopped even with violence anymore, because it's much more broader concept than just a matter of who's in control of a parliament.
Besides, can that be, that holding on to the power fantasy about this empire, can be in the end destruction of Russia - whereas it could've possibly done better if it did some re-branding of ideas?
>You do not understand the scale of the problem
You are right, all tho after listening to all your stories the picture is slowly getting together what the institutionalized corruption means. And look, I don't have a solution for this. It's up to Russians to want to get rid of it. It needs a strong grassroot level support for it. And I think you didn't cover the most harmful forms of corruption, which has to do with the power of using state's resources. They should belong to people, ideally.
I do get it tho, that it's mostly beneficial for the regime. And from western pov, when we are asking "why don't you go for democracy", it's more like they are asking "why are you letting this happen to yourselves?" We don't mean anything hostile or bad with it. And democracy doesn't have to mean pro-western thinking necessarily. All tho, why wouldn't it be people's will to co-operate, when it's win-win for both? Now we are playing zero sum game at best, or loss-loss-cycle at the worst.
Free media on the other hand, it's just partly about foreign policy, but more importantly about internal politics. The most beneficial part of it for the society should be that it watches for the ones in control, and don't let them exploit their power.
Well as I've said in other context, I think that to some degree west is making a horrible mistake by cutting out the relation with Russia. There's no guarantee about this making this better for anyone. And it's wrong if regular people who might even oppose putinists have to suffer because of the regime.
But then again, how can the west support Russia in pretty much anything, when we see it's acting all aggressive against the west / innocent people? Ukrainian situation might just be the tip of the iceberg for what's to come. The sanctions etc. is act of desperation, I could imagine. There doesn't exist better idea how to stop Putin, and there is no guarantee that the next leader would be any better or any less authotarian dictator.
I don't have a solution for all this. Except the one which I've already talked about: democratic Russia. If that is not to happen, some healthy level of dialogue going on would be beneficial, how to avoid conflicts in future.
Oh btw: Thank you for the photos!
Idk if I've said this already, but st. Petersburg reminds alot like some Finnish cities in it's architecture. (ofc it's much bigger than any of the Finnish cities, I think it even has more population than all of the Finland combined. :D)
>it couldnt be forced to change without any violence in the streets
I get this. We've seen the videos of protesters being thrown to jail for whatever reason. Hell, I even saw one video of pro-putinist woman being thrown to jail for speaking to camera man. :D Apparently it's not a perfect time to voice any opinions, if you appreciate your freedom.
Maybe there should exist a different word for a Ruski anti-war protester. Hippie is too "mild" word for a people who are willing to get their asses kicked & thrown to jail for protesting. (In last thread we saw people talking about broken bones and such as natural part of opposing the regime in protests.) That's kinda hardcore, and tbh whole lot of admirable than voicing your opinion in west, where cops rarely harm you in fear of losing their job.
>the goverment will continue to get more authoritarian until one day it turns into a completely totalitarian system, and the things wont change in a good way
I share this fear with you. The possibility shouldn't be undermined.
I have been extra busy aswell, and besides that have had a head ache every now and then for days, which has only made the chores & stress to accumulate.. oh well. Atleast the spring is steadily on it's way and washing away the winter depression!
>u should always choose speciality not only by the income, u could wage their, but mostly by the sphere, that u interesting a lot
That's true. Money can only motivate for so long. And that's right, if the "self-made-millionaires" has taught anything, it's that they rarely even aimed to be rich, but more like wanted to be good at what they do. One definition of being successful is to be able to concentrate on what you do.
What comes to lawyers, one which I talked some years back, told me that the hardest part of his work is to get clients to understand, that they don't understand a shit about law, and why they should just stfu in court. :D
>And after growing up, human reproduces only this model in any relationships in his life
That's not bad theory at all. I think it comes close to psychoanalytic understanding of human behavior and especially traumatic relationships, and the repetation of them.
Also one way to look at is that we keep repeating the mistakes of our parents. And we'll repeat them until the lessons are finally learned. Sometimes that might mean coming to terms with how we were raised, and understanding the flaws in our own parents, which we've found "god-like" in terms of dictating our lives. You understand what I mean? The illusion breaks, and frees us, often coming with the understanding of "not deserving one's fate." Often times this might mean empathy & forgiveness towards the wrong doer to achieve the freedom. In almost spiritual terms one could say, that it's the act of alleviating karma.
Some children might geat beaten and abused so bad in their childhood, that they are destined to destructive behavior. "Fun" fact: you know how psychopathic children often get "punishment" for their behavior? Nowadays modern psychology has found some working models to lessen the symptoms, in the center being the act of rewarding instead of punishment, which latter rarely works on psychopaths. The mechanism is broken. There's no moral, no capability to love or empathy. What must come first, is the feeling of being loved, or being cared for. There exist theories of serial killers being left to the emotional stage of little children (abuse breaking the inner mechanisms for healthy growth.) For example it has been noted, that many of them have compulsionary act of touching their lips (in adulthood) - which is the most sensitive part of baby children.
>That's why from genetic theory most surviving offspring comes from racemixing
I do get the what you mean, all tho I want to mention on side note that some genetics studies from past decades have shown that "little" bit of inbreed might be good for genetics. If I haven't understood it all wrong, relationships between small cousins are more fertile.
Of course it can be argued tho, that the inbreeding that has happened in past, has been so familiar between people (I think it still is in some cultures), that our genes have found a way to deal with it all.
That being said, I totally agree with >To achive new environment u need another one with totally different properties but with same "connectors"
Being the most healthy and productive/creative way of connecting.
>serial killers or dictators shouldn't be just killed or just claimed as mad persons
Tbh, I think that many in the field of psychology become almost imprisoned by the thought of explaining evil around them. And in past decades or so, the individual & societal benefits of psychopaths & narcistists have been somewhat more recognized in psychology (and even in studies about leadership.) All tho one could still imagine the harms to outweight the benefits - possibly. Of course it can be argued, that the most predator beings that your culture can cultivate, comes to be your benefit in the form of your leadership. Then again, is there any guarantee, that they don't act predators alike towards their own people?
Besides just modern psychology, one could argue that our culture has been fascinated by the question for centuries. Even serial killers are being romanticized now, and it's not exactly the first time in our history. Maybe in some strange way we find something primitive and something to appreciate on such behavior. I mean, we are not far away from being predators ourselves. It's a thin line..
Of course one way to look at it can be also that society hasn't yet found a way to deal with them / get rid of them. In short, as long as there are suitable environment, we'll continue to see destructive behavior around us. It seems like that in structural terms there seems to be one thing that determines the presence of destructive behavior (even serial killers) the most: income equality. Compare USA for any other country. One word: capitalism.
But you indeed make a good point there. Instead of looking it at individual phenomenon, we should really try to look at things from broader perspective. The evil we see around us could offer us a well needed mirror. I strongly believe, that as long as there are children suffering, we will continue to see disturbed & destructive adults. When talking about psychopaths, we often forget, that they have been the first victims, in a sense.
(Have you watched the series "Mindhunter" btw? Strongly recommended. It bases on the life work of John Douglas, whose team was the first to come up with the term "serial killer" & criminal profiling of such people.)
>Like, brain of regular person can't accept that some personal tragedies could be their own mistake, and they try to find any rational explanation, why outer powers want to stop him.
This is almost a cliche, but if you look at Hitler's life span, it could be almost argued that he indeed wanted to destroy all the things he had suffered in his youth & early adulthood.
>Because, u know, next time it could be more dangerous virus, but we'll be more ready for it, if we investigate today's tragedy better.
May I ask: were there alot of anti-vac propaganda inside the Russia? Did the Kremlin trolls aim it for Ruskis also (I've read articles that Ruskis have been one of the countries who've been the most vaccine hesitant, but this might also be because of distrust toward the authorities, and not just because of anti-vac propaganda?)
This might have been very well one of the biggest obstacles in west when it comes to stopping the disease. Apparently also China used similar trolls to spread anti-vac propaganda.
All tho, they are not only ones to blame in big picture. There are also internal forces trying to benefit politically from such things. Long before co-vid WHO stated that vaccine hesitancy has become one of the top-10 global health risks. It's not only making stopping the new infections harder, but also risking the rebirth of the diseases we've vaccinated out of existence already. It's a sad outcome of people's health becoming pawn in politics.
Ofc there's positives also. We can already see positive transformation of working habits, which will outlast the pandemic.
>Putin's yacht and palace
I hope you are right. As I said, in field of psychology there's the fascination with evil. We see some psychologist (such as Jordan Peterson just for an example) getting almost obsessed by the thought of culture sliding into totalitarianism, if people do not actively work on to stop such development.
I recently watched a video of his palace (made by Navalny's team, I think? .. was it actually you who linked it?) One could look at it as a retirement plan. One can hope atleast. Toivossa on hyvä elää, "It's good to live in hope." :)
Idk if you are aware, but the dudes in Ruger Hauer also have their own careers as single artists. You might want to check them out, if you liked Ruger Hauer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7BQjU0qRmc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG-s48gYY-8
& Last one being Tommishock (his career I haven't been following that much tho.)
Feel free to recommend some Ruski music btw. Otava Yo is great!
Actually this comes close to how I've pictured it all. And this something we should understand about Ruskis behind the polls.
https://youtu.be/1bH9sHi_G3U?t=22
Look at this young lady voicing her opinion. How I picture it, she first thinks that the video is coming for state media's purposes. She knows what she is expected to tell. Only after she realizes that the camera man is a random youtuber, she feels free to voice her own opinion. (Btw: in these videos we see this happen often in one form or another. And also people not wanting to speak about their opinion.) I could imagine there to be alot of paranoia when voicing own's opinions. I recently saw some news about some Russian party having a virtual "snitch"-service, where people can report each other's anti-government opinions.
Which one of the opinions are more.. umm.. viable, then? The public or the private, more personal one? Which ones have more power? I mean, the regime doesn't seem to give much of a fuck about personal opinions of Ruskis nor democracy. Where does the line go, how far the regime can go against the will of the people? Or can the regime create illusions and justify pretty much anything they ever want?
Imho one thing is for sure: this isn't the people's collective will we see happening in Ukraine.
Hey there, Ruski! :)
Are you implying that you feel like you are not welcomed to Finland? I'd like to think majority of Finns are above of such shit, and could direct their negative feelings to the regime instead of people. Do not forget that. It's frustrating to see things becoming more russophobic just because of putinists, we should not let them have such power over our minds.
I said it in the last thread, visiting Russia has been and still is on my bucket list. All tho now I've become somewhat paranoid if I've broken some laws about breaking Ruski laws (my opinions are not necessarily on line with the Ruski propaganda.) I think I told in last thread that we've couple of these pro-Putin idiots in Finland, who've threatened even us Finns with criminal sentences if Russia's officials ever catch us.
Is there a statue of limitation in such crimes? :D
One day this all will be over and things will return into sanity. They have to. Right?
>this isn't the people's collective will we see happening in Ukraine
You are deluded. The population largely supports the war. Many actually cheer the slaughter, and most hate the US and think that bashing Ukraine somehow hurts them. They see it as a war against the US.
Two facts that prove the support: no high official resignations in protest - shows the near 100% support of the elites; no significant protests on the streets - the populace support.
To think that they somehow are against it "deep inside" is mental gymnastics trying to cope with the facts.
>created shizophrenic ideology combining the most disgusting elements of communism with pseudo-patriotic discourse and religious obscurantism
I think this is what we see outside the Russia (all tho the communism might not be so visible.) I think for long people (even experts) thought that it's just some weird power fantasy in the Ruski's elite, and it wouldn't manifest in reality. Well, what do you know?
And yeap. This was one of the reasons I wanted to have dialogue with you Ruskis, to hear your views & opinions with my own ears. I hope I get to see more stable Russia in my lifetime, not just because of myself as a neighbor of Ruskis (Ruski dictators might have direct consequences for our health), but because I sincerely think that Russian people deserve a better system. Win-win.
We see the Kreml trolls voicing the regime's propaganda & opinions 24/7, so yeah, we are keeping up with their views. They are basically spreading hate & fear even to absurd extent, and I think people are growing sick of it slowly but steadily. It is hard to understand how can there even exist such a power which seems to systematically sow shit everywhere around them. As a side effect they are literally ruining the internet.
Do you want to tell how do you view things evolving from this? Does there exist powers to retie relations to west?
You might want to check <- this out.
Having heard many of the opinions of Ruskis, I wouldn't be all so sure that it's the majority's will we see manifesting. It's not so much about supporting the regime, but instead surviving/having a change for life in Russia. Ruski's are not being necessarily raised to support the regime, but to avoid problems with it. Many have relatives etc. who've tried, with nothing but bad results (this goes back for centuries, Putin's regime ain't exactly the first one.)
I'd like to think that I'd be protesting if I were a Ruski, but then again it's easy for us to say: would you yourself, if you know 100% you cannot change anything without violent revolution - a fight against your own people?
>I think Putin's regime finds you as his worst enemy
For why do you think in this way?
>right-wing populist
Yep, like Trump. However, I mean there is a handful of Western politicians who speak about bad consequences due to dependence on US policy.
>then they being guilty of "wrong political opinion."
Much more ordinary people has suffered from the regime, you know. You are concerned about pollution from a nearest plant? You are extremist then. Your business is on the radar of smb influential? You know what may happen. And so on. That`s why I do not feel any pity about almost all oppositionist. Why such oppositionists are shouting about themselves, themselves and again themselves - help us, please, we are fighting against bloodthirsty regime, how dare are you to support Putin, you, bydlo? Everything here is rotten, everything is bad, they repeat and repeat. They are acting just to make the regime weaker, but not better. They prefer not to consider the real problems. It`s a form of a religion - all the worst is Putin`s blame, just make the regime democratic and all will be excellent. The same rhethotics was used to crush SU, to destroy the remains of SU industrial comlex and so on. So, I can not trust these fanatics at all.
>it was an act & mask for western leaders
I almost sure about this.
>a world of globalization and fast cultural evolution
Here you can be read as WESTERN-like world of globalization. This is often considered here as a cultural and intellectual agression, you know.
>I am not sure if that's fair comparison tho
I just mean a kind of a political censorship. It`s everywhere.
>western-minded opposition is claimed to be traitors & western spies?
This is the old tradition.You may be more radical to West, but not less. Pro-Western forces were always suspected. And if they got power, the consequences were extremely grief. And such western-minded and liberal persons were always blamed. You know, the word "liberal" is often considered as "pro West person" and is used in negative connotation.
>against the cultural norms
>individual rights
Exactly! The concept of "individual rights" does not have a long history here. Moreover, the Russian mentality remains to be very collectivistic, so, individual rights are not supposed here as smth crucial or extremely necessary.
>energy dependency as a sort of a weapon
This is not energy dependence only. Rare metalls, uranium, fertilizer and so on. Russia has much more opportunities for economic fight against West than only gas and oil. But nobody cares about these things. Moreover, currently Russia, after all these economical strikes can almost instantly shut down crucial export, but does not perform it.
Yes, I agree that NS2 may be a kind of weapon. From the other side, EU has a lot of economical weapons against Russia. It could make benefits for all states if the cooperation remains. And the core point - without EU dependence on US.
>why the dictatorship only benefits the elite, whereas the democracy would be beneficial for regular people
If only democray can be build here. I write about this below.
>what do they really want?
The term is often used here - "the joint West". However, the term is critisized as inadequate due to West is not homogenius. The reason to us it - US`s leading positions across Western countries which face the lack of sovereighty due to US policy.
The way to make sence here - to understand the word "collective". This is the most fearsome point due to historical conflicts: united West lead by some force (Hapoleon, Hitler. etc) was always a deadly treat. If the role of US was less important and West was scattered, it wouldn`t be considered as etremely dangerous.
>do we see next Ukraine sooner or later?
I see the situation is doomed to be worse than in Cold War. Russia considers nuclear weapons near it`s borders as a deadly treat. If this happens with Baltic states (I mean the placement of such weapon there), the consequences will be terrible. Even if it will not happen, EU is already increasing military budgets. And this may lead us all to disaster.
>you didn't cover the most harmful forms of corruption
Sure thing. I did it just to illustrate how the corruption is deep here.
>It needs a strong grassroot level support for it
This is the key issue. Look, I may understand the persons who sincerely support democracy here. This means that ordinary people will get more responsible and active for their lives and the situation around, that the corruption will become less harmfull, that individual activities will become more valuable, that free media will play their role and so on. I recognize all these advantages. From my experience, sometimes it may work here, a little bit, just a little bit. Until you face the corruption and how power is organized here.
Just think about history, the Russian mindset and institutions here - and you will say "ahhaa! got it!". Western democracies required a hundred of years, you know.
Persons with liberal views often speak - "this is not a good nation". So, that`s why I consider many of them as fanatics. They think that they are prophets of democracy and ordinary Russians respond them - fuck you, so, they begin to start to hate their own nation.
I do not see any way to set democracy here. It`s really some form of the "archaic" midset, especially from the western pov. That`s why democracy is considered as fundamental treat here.
>Can you elaborate your view on this?
Sure.
Russia`s heritage - to be the empire for almost 400 years. And it wasn`t, in contrast to the Western states, colonial empire. Russia tried to encorporate the conqured nations into the whole, to buy their trust by developing their territories and so on. Of course, there were dramatical historical events and tragedies and almost all nations here have their reasons to hate this path. That`s why war in Chechnya was considered as extremely dangerous as it may lead to the complete collapse.
It`s very simple. Yeltzin spoke like "take as many freedoms as you can" and this lead to growth of separatism and crisis. So, the rulers think - if Russia cease to be empire, it cease to exist as the whole state.
Did it ask your question?
Phone campaign? Says nothing. Of course most will hang up on you instantly if it's a mass call.
Telegram emojis? Depends on the channel. Telegram users are probably more anti-Putin than average.
Sure, we can never be certain. We can only see the results of various expressions of public opinion, all biased. Based on what I see, I believe the 70% support figure is about right.
Just some examples of how people's real discontent looks like:
In 2011, when people first realized that Putin is forever, they came out on the streets of Moscow. The crowds were big and were a serious headache for the government.
Trucker's protest against mandatory COVID vaccinations in Canada this year. People were unhappy and they caused serious disturbance which forced a national emergency.
BLM protests in the US. People didn't agree with police brutality and racism and went ahead burning things down, including police stations.
The current anti-war protests are relatively mild. There is also a quite large support rally. These are hard facts, the "real" expression of opinion that is hard to fake.
Look, our propaganda is shouting like "Russians are in danger in Western states! They are being cancelled! This is a form of racism! This is not due to only government actions, this is due to ordinary westerners are russophobes! There may be that they are just modern Nazis!" Western leaders say in the same manner - "this is not only due to Putin! All the Russian who support him are guilty too! Let`s make their lives worse!" This is a staring point of de-humanization of an entire nations, don`t you find? This is the most terrifying thing - both sides have already started these processes.
>Well, what do you know?
They in the West are complete fools if they thought Putin and co are just joking when saying things like "we all will go to heaven while all of them just die" or if they are not serious when claiming that "ussr crash was the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century". Like it is such a trick to increase popularity between some marginalised groups or kinda that. No, right nnow everybody can make sure they are really that inadequate
>Do you want to tell how do you view things evolving from this? Does there exist powers to retie relations to west?
No matter how this "special operation" ends, nothing good awaits Russia in the near future. In fact, there are only 4 possible options.
1)Ukraine agrees to all conditions. Recognizes Crimea, LDNR, anything. What's next? No one lifts the sanctions anyway, and no one recognizes it. The whole economy rested only on the fact that it played the role of a gas station for the west. After the end of this model Russia is waiting for a natural collapse and a political crisis
2)Russia, after all, at the cost of huge losses, both human and financial, is pressing the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Ukraine surrenders. And signs the surrender. All these "people's republics" with the "Lvov people's republic" inclusive appear as part of Russia.
What's next? And then, first of all, the huge dissatisfaction of the population in Russia itself with all these losses. And impoverishment.Hatred and disloyalty of 40 million vast territory.
The devastation, which was already there, but was greatly intensified by the actions of the RF Armed Forces during the "special operation".
All young people who manage to escape will flee to Europe. What does not only Ukrainian, but also Russian and Belarusian.
Sanctions are getting tougher. Russia is turning not even into Iran, but into one continuous Chernobyl Zone.
There is no money to keep such a huge territory. Especially against the backdrop of mass discontent among the population and total confrontation with the West. Russia very quickly ceases to exist as a political subject. In addition, China will also do everything to make this happen as quickly as possible. And not just the West.
3)For one reason or another, a direct conflict with NATO begins. Russia is throwing huge masses of people to slaughter against the repeatedly opposed NATO army in all respects. Nevertheless, naturally loses and signs the surrender.T he whole eastern europe lies in ruins. Russia is divided into parts and is being "demilitarized nd denazified"
4)Putin decides to use nuclear weapons and suits the apocalyse
> to terms with how we were raised, and understanding the flaws in our own parents, which we've found "god-like" in terms of dictating our lives. You understand what I mean?
It's same, as I told u with story of those old lady and her grandmother. Sometimes, when people realise all mistakes of parental education, they could become total nihilists and start to untrust anybody in their life. The goal is not just to understand mistakes of your parents, but most important to accept, that this mistakes was unavoidable in those circumstances. And maybe if u become to this conclusion u will realise, that only this sequence of mistakes gave u some advantages for your live, like sensitive to real people's emotions, that could help u in any sphere or just to fund real friends. And sure it could help u to accept your own mistakes, cause many human problems becomes from selfhumiliation for some not perfect steps.
I've seen working of body oriented psychologists, and I think it's really good theme for achieving this understanding. But anyway, a person should do more work by himself to accept everything I told and to realise his personal experience.
>For example it has been noted, that many of them have compulsionary act of touching their lips (in adulthood) - which is the most sensitive part of baby children
I'm not sure, it's something special about only serial killers. Actually all humans using this tricks. Stimulating some sensitive zones helps to relief stress by short time dopamine rising. Like head scratching or belt shaking or holding ourselves. Yes - this is body language, but reason of it not just in some primitive habits. It's all related to biological processes in or brain. Psychopaths could use it more often than others, just because they stressing more.
>many in the field of psychology become almost imprisoned by the thought of explaining evil around them
I know that the text is not really about this, but I can't pass by this thesis, because it well illustrates my words about the simplicity of human thinking and the programming of the brain. I'm sure you know yourself that a humans is much more willing to watch news about negative events and keeps negative experiences in his memory longer. But this is another mechanism inherited from primitive times. In general, right now millions of your sensors of feeling are processing information from the outside world. And if you are listening to music from a speaker right now, then you will definitely pay attention if suddenly someone honks on the street. Or if you are looking at the monitor now, then you will be distracted if there is a lightning flash in the window. And this actually means that your eyes and ears work in at least two directions. Although in fact, you will perceive this information at any point around you, i.e. you are using a huge number of sensory sensors right now, the purpose of which is to warn you of possible danger. Simultaneous operation of all these sensors, which you don't even notice in everyday life, requires huge expenditure of mental energy and therefore you can't just stop controlling any of these channels. And that's why marketers and propaganda easily attract your attention by pulling on these channels responsible for warning about danger. By the way, even the action of some drugs, like marijuana, for example, does not really bring something new to your brain, but simply blocks part of these sensors, unloading your brain and helping you better concentrate on feelings from sex or the perception of music and painting.
At the level of anatomy, this can be seen by observing the pupil of the eye. When it is narrowed, your vision is more relaxed and you see more space around you. But if you concentrate on an object, then the pupil narrows and you only see it, not noticing the objects around. This is necessary in order to concentrate on the source of danger in a dangerous situation. Exactly the same mechanism operates at the level of all the senses. You can walk on fire if you concentrate the sensations of the skin at any point except the feet. And in the same way, propaganda captures our attention by using words and describing situations that affect our basic fears. And these techniques can be much more complicated than we think at first glance. Sometimes, when it seems to us that we are not subject to propaganda because we see its simplicity, perhaps we are already under the influence of a more complex propaganda mechanism that affects us while we look at its more obvious manifestations.
Damn, it sounds like a manifestation of the thinking of a supporter of conspiracy theories. But in fact, I would like you to just try to analyze this information and maybe it will help you pay less attention to information that just overloads your brain and distracts from really important things.
>Of course one way to look at it can be also that society hasn't yet found a way to deal with them / get rid of them. In short, as long as there are suitable environment, we'll continue to see destructive behavior around us. It seems like that in structural terms there seems to be one thing that determines the presence of destructive behavior (even serial killers) the most: income equality. Compare USA for any other country
You're right about everything, but I think you didn't make the most explicit answer about the reasons. This is the same thing I said about how people chose fascists to destroy the old order and communist tyrants. It's just that in Western (capitalist) "mythology" such a "destroyer" is not a violator of political or racial rules, but of the rules of capitalist logic - someone who destroys not for money, like the Joker. People who consider themselves outsiders dream of a person who will just come and destroy everything they associate with the world of inequality.
>Have you watched the series "Mindhunter"
Not, but thx 4 recommendation. I really like to watch crime investigations, when go to slip, cause it gives u another good source for learning different markers of human's behaviour and some interesting models of decision finding, that could be used in management. Judging by the description, this is what will suit me.
>were there alot of anti-vac propaganda inside the Russia? Did the Kremlin trolls aim it for Ruskis also (I've read articles that Ruskis have been one of the countries who've been the most vaccine hesitant, but this might also be because of distrust toward the authorities, and not just because of anti-vac propaganda?
There was a very short period inside Russia when propaganda talked about the dangers of vaccination. In the very first months. But this is only because it was talked about in the West and we did not have our own vaccine, so the state did not know how to make money on it.
When everyone realized that vaccination was inevitable, they first released a vaccine of dubious quality, and then began to promote it among the population. And you correctly pointed out that the level of vaccination was the most obvious marker of trust in the authorities. Everyone saw that even Putin did not get vaccinated until last fall and did not do it on camera. And many of his inner circle have never been vaccinated. Until it was made mandatory, no more than 10 percent were vaccinated voluntarily, despite all the propaganda and attempts to block anti-vaxxers.
And yes, at the same time, our authorities promoted anti-boxer movements in the West. This was done to destabilize the social sphere there. So that they are carried away by internal problems and do not pay attention to politics inside Russia.
There was a funny story when the German government blocked RT-Germany for promoting anti-vaxxers. At the same time, as we fined people for lack of vaccination, and the same RT spoke about the benefits of vaccination for russian viewers. But then they all explained that Germany had blocked them for being too honest about the politics of the West.
By the way, do you remember what I said about the rise of nationalism in Europe? At the weekend, a protest of 150,000 people was held in Spain against the increase in fuel prices. And it was conducted by the local nationalist party.
Similar protests are already taking place in Corsica. And unfortunately, this is just the beginning.
>Feel free to recommend some Ruski music btw
I'd like it, if u'll tell what kind of music u prefer. But anyway, maybe it would be better to start investigating russian music from Viktor Tsoi and his group "Kino". He is very important for our modern culture and become the symbol of changes during "perestoika"-period. Many foreigners really like his music, when they open it. He is not very known outside, cause he died young, but here, in Russia, he's person same size as The Beatles for the rest of the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZebGQJHHo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWDCuOKYckI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ercEgwN-J3s
Paperi T - Elokuva ft. P-K Keränen - this track I already added in my playlist. It's sort of I like too. Btw, I found another funny reference to Russia in this video (pic related). It russian cheap sparkling wine. One of the symbol of soviet union here.
Oh, here's the answer. They recorded video in Russia. The inscription on the door "Keep quiet in the hotel from 10 pm to 7 am".
Good morning, frens!
How's life? Anything new you wanna share?
I'll be answering later today, when having some proper spare time. Hold on!
-AP
Russian financial markets opens second day in a row(only government bonds though). It gives hope that soon I will get a chance to have my investments back.
and in the end, girls voice says same as in chorus: "Mä oon ku elokuva, jossa ei kukaan kuole", but in russian translation ofc
Looks like things begin to get hot in Russia, something is about to begin soon, I think.
On the video is a skinhead throwing molotov into Kremlin's walls. The video was taken today at 3PM in Moscow
> skinhead
i see - you western degenerates know nothing bout russian skins
oh wow such a shame
схуяли я вестерн дегенрат то долбоеб блять
скины че по твоему в пынькин дом не могут молотов кинуть? учитывая что пыня еще и жид, лол)
I've found that kind of weird myself. I mean, I totally get the hatred towards Putin's regime. But having such a harsh sanctions on people aswell, idk. In some sense they can be harder to justify, if people would realize that not that many actually support him.
Still, idk if many in west necessary realizes that in Russia there ain't democracy. It's not like average westerner reads about history of every single country. Only recently Russia has been much more on the surface.
And tbh, I can't speak for all, but atleast we Finns are kinda worrying that no matter what we do, your media will claim anyways that we are dehumanizing you. Feel free to try to read this through translator: https://www.iltalehti.fi/paakirjoitus/a/dfec9c8a-540e-459d-89d7-7c21b608ff91
Basically it says, that Russian media is trying to make Russian people think, that we hate you. And that's not the case really.
Good evening frends
Very interesting article, thx. I found some of its points to be similar to the narratives that Kazakhtan opposition media writes. The key point is the Putin`s rhethorics about who of the Russia`s rulers in the past "made a gift" to one or another state or nation.
>totally get the hatred towards Putin's regime
And the regime is the obviuos consequence of Russian political traditions and people`s mindset. This always was the same; Yeltzin wasn`t democrat, just Russia was weak and therefore could not act in the way you see now.
>Russian media is trying to make Russian people think, that we hate you
This is absolutely true and it worse that you may imagine.Our propaganda (I mean both official and unofficial) says - these westerners are world-wide parasites - they just print dollars/euros and buy all they want! West wants our resources for free (so, the recent McFaul`s post about that Russia should give its oil/gas to the West for free is widely used to highlight this point)! They hate all the Russian! Russophobes! Faggots! Nazis!
And it works drastically.
>For why do you think in this way?
Because of most of the propaganda & lies of Kreml's trolls are headed towards you. We find them absurd. We see them making great illusions, only for your sake. Sometimes that's the only way to make sense of some ways your leaders / media acts. They don't even try to justify their actions for us, it's more meant for Ruskis themselves.
If you want an example of this: our security police announced today, that atm. Finnish information space isn't so much targeted from Russia, because they are centering most of their resources to Russia & Ukraine because of conflict.
And one could also argue, that they must realize that if Russian people got mad enough, they'd be direct threat to the lives of elite. I mean, you have history about it, don't you? They must've learned a lesson or two about revolutions.
>make the regime weaker, but not better
What would make it better then? I mean, one way to look at the criticism is that it's a opportunity to learn. If such voices are being muted, what makes the regime improve?
>This is often considered here as a cultural and intellectual agression
Yeah, I get it. You are taking it a notch more seriously. But why do you feel so threatened about it? Could it be any more evident, that you are going to hold on to your culture dearly? :D
Could it also be that the conservative political forces are trying to justify their existence by creating the fear of progress? I mean, isn't that much of why Ruski system can't evolve any faster? It lacks the mechanisms to wipe away the old power.
>the word "liberal" is often considered as "pro West person" and is used in negative connotation.
I think that many in west interprets that negatively too. We have our own cultural battle, liberals vs. conservatists. (Ofc without the west-east connotations necessarily.)
>concept of "individual rights" does not have a long history here
You wanna hear a funny thing about this? There's this youtuber woman, who escaped from North-Korea to USA. Guess what's the only thing she says she's missing in NK? The collective values.
And tbh, I think that we see some inner battling in west. The communality is living a huge transformation, we barely got used to living in the new reality of industrial era, and now we are already dealing with the new reality of digitalization.
So in this sense, it's not surprising that (even geopolitically) it only makes sense that you have kinda harder battle with it. It's not always easy to be between east & west. (East being often concidered as the more collective culture.)
But hey, nothing is certain but change. :) It's not like such values have to be lost. They just need to find new ways of manifesting in current time & environment.
>without EU dependence on US
Idk if that's so simple. I'd say at this point of time, it's more about co-dependency. EU & USA can't fuck each other up, without shooting them at their own angle real bad. Pretty much the same with USA & China, they can't really fuck themselves up. Or that's how I thought it was. Recently there have been some signs of China being the next in line of being "cancelled." Here have a look:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_European_Union
Anyways, we've seen some criticism towards USA. It has fucked up badly, multiple times. EU is not blind to this. Besides, nobody wants to see another Trump.
You've surely heard about the foil hat theory of USA having set up a trap for Putin in Ukraine. I'm not sure if I believe it myself, but looking at the consequences of all this,.. Do we have a choice but to tighten the relationship with USA?
>If the role of US was less important and West was scattered
One could say, that this is one of the most anxiety causing part in what's to come. EU is growing more united. I think that Putin might have sensed that now is his time to strike, before EU turns into federation. It might have been a miscalculation, that EU wouldn't be so united already.
But is Putin ready to back up anymore? We see some terrifying signs of Ukraine only being the start. I hope this is only paranoia tho. I am not sure how this is presented in Ruski media.
>If only democray can be build here
I've got it. It's hard. And just recently I heard one of our foreign policy expert calling it "impossible."
But maybe it will come with the new generations? The western culture, and even without the west the art & science surely are doing their tricks. It would be insane even economically speaking for Ruski system not to adopt the good parts from democracy.
>Until you face the corruption and how power is organized here
If I were a Ruski with a magic wand, I'd make one improvement to the law: (and I'm repeating myself here:) a mechanism to wipe away the old power. It makes the system renew itself much faster, and it forces the old power to give up the power. Power corrupts anyone, and soon we see old man staying in power for all their age, not being able to let go. And this might eventually turn the system serve & represent small power clique more than the rest of the nation.
You understand what I mean? Democracy needs a working metabolism, so that it can get rid off power that's not needed or wanted.
Ofc, easier said than done, now that things have come from so far, this far. I've been thinking about this recently, and idk, the more I understand Russian culture, the more I'm banging my own head to the wall (intellectually speaking.) I said it in the last thread, that it would be so easy to wish for "better next leader", but that's exactly the very error that probably shouldn't repeat itself.
>encorporate the conqured nations into the whole
Maybe this is something that's eventually growing to be the doom of Russia. It's holding a dream too big, with wrong means. I mean, there could exist a different kind of dream, where people would actually want to join it. You have the resources, you have the land, and even more so as the arctic melts. Only thing lacking is a proper system.
I think it's quite evident by now, that western & Russian leader exist in completely different reality.
Look, if this stays as a localized conflict (not escalating), we can let out a sigh of relief (and by this I don't mean to undermine how shitty this situation is already for Ukrainians & Ruskis.) I've said this before to many Ruskis: idk if Ruskis themselves necessarily get, how risky things look right now to outside. In Polish embassy the Russian diplomats be already smoking their files. How many decisions away it really is for NATO to intervene, and Chinese getting involved? Can we trust the leaders to do everything in their power to not fuck this up?
Besides, today we saw a news about Putin's regime planning out a false flag operation, meaning to justify marshal law and large level mobilisation. Normally I could just shrug my shoulders to such news, but recently US intelligence have been pretty darn accurate in foreseeing Putin's plans.
And it doesn't end there. We Finns are fearing that IF Putin "succeeds" in Ukraine, we might be next. Most pessimistic estimations say that we have up to summer to prepare our defenses. That can easily lead to bigger escalation also.
Somehow I see the nr. 3 & 4 as being the same. Just different phases. Putin doesn't exactly seem like a guy who knows when to back up, if he knows how to back up at all. That's a horrible personality trait for a leader with nukes to possess.
> allegations of Russian “genocide” in eastern Ukraine, which is untrue, as the UN and the Hague tribunal have stated
They don't think 'genocide' to be the right word, but people have been dying in Donbass regardless of whatever they name it, and this is not the case with Finland. Whatever discomforts ethnic Russians in Finland, it's not the same.
> Russia has to come to Finland to “protect” the Russian-speaking minority, just as has been done in Ukraine.
People have been being killed in Donbass, thousands of civilians dead. Finland is peaceful, no one dies there from shelling. And the author puts the word protect in brackets and compares these two. It looks moronic to me.
> Basically it says, that Russian media is trying to make Russian people think, that we hate you. And that's not the case really.
I can't say I know all what media say because I don't consume much news. But I consume a lot of user-generated content like Reddit, forums, imageboards and such. "We need to disrupt their quality of life any way possible. We want every Russian citizen to be unhappy." This is something I read a lot. This particular person wanted a password manager to block their Russian users from the stored passwords. They rejected the idea, but many implemented restrictions (not because of sanctions, but because the "silence is violence" thing), some did malicious stuff. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H3xPB4PgWeFcHjZ7NOPtrcya_Ua4jUolWm-7z9-jSpQ/htmlview?usp=sharing https://xn--80adjigxbghjs.xn--p1ai/ By the way, these links are not from scary 'pro-Kremlin media' 'disseminating' 'Russian disinformation', they are from /s/, actually.
Hatred is visible. I don't believe all Finnish people hate me, but I know some do, and some of them would want me personally and my family 'to be unhappy' like the guy I cited, and some of those would take or are taking action. And it is fine, really. Well, it is insanity. But them being hateful affects them in the first place. And again, there are people hateful towards Russia in Western countries, this is the fact, it's not 'Russian lies' fed to me, you go to Twitter, you go to Reddit, you see it with your eyes from first-hand. But I don't assume all people there are hateful (obviously, it would be wrong to assume that), and I haven't seen "Putin's propaganda machine" trying to make people to believe Westerners hates us. I've had individuals and companies with anti-Russian sentiment trying to make me believe this, though: everyone hates you, you are a new North Korea, a pariah state. So, it seems it's an anti-Russian narrative, why would our media push it?
>Which one of the opinions are more.. umm.. viable, then? The public or the private, more personal one? Which ones have more power?
People here prefer not to express their opinion publicly if it differs from the state one. Of course, cases when people are arrested and fined for this are quite rare, but no one wants to be the tester himself. Even those who are ready to do this at a rally are not ready to be alone with a policeman or a pro-government activist. Because if he beats you on camera, he will still be acquitted. Just a few news from the last couple of days:
- a woman was fined for a ribbon on her hair in the colors of the Ukrainian flag
- a girl was fined $ 400 (approximately the average salary here) for a poster with the inscription "fascism will not pass"
- another girl was fined for a poster with the inscription "two words" (everyone understands that this means "no war", but the verdict says "two words")
- a man was arrested because of the one who kept some old yellow-blue things on the balcony
And that's not all, and it's only for a couple of days. Of course, we have not yet reached the natural red Guards, but it will definitely start sooner or later, because more and more young people are impoverished and some of them will probably want to make such cruel content to promote their social networks, for example. Again, this is a small percentage of people, but since only they are allowed to have a voice, only it is heard in the West.
So those who spoke out for the war on your video, basically wanted to be left behind as soon as possible.
A quiet personal protest here is exactly what happened in your example with vaccination. Where people see that they can protest with impunity, they do it. For example, recently there was a vote for an animal-a symbol of one of the Russian regions. And of course the local authorities wanted it to be some kind of strong predatory animal, like a bear or a leopard. But people decided to start voting for chimpanzees from the local zoo, and even taking into account fake votes, the local regional government failed to block the votes of ordinary citizens who saw this as another opportunity to show their opinion. As a result, when it turned out that the chimpanzee had won, they canceled the voting results and were left without a mascot. Such actions actually matter because the authorities in Moscow see the ineffectiveness of propaganda and punish their own servants who do not do their job well. And as a result, normal professionals prefer not to cooperate with the authorities in the future, and the chances that they will be able, for example, to disconnect us from the Internet are negligible.
Also with vaccination, people laughed at the powerlessness of the government, which could not act harshly against anti-vaxxers, because among them there are many schizophrenics and pensioners, and religious people who are supporters of Putin.
Such stories force the authorities to act in a field that is unusual for them and make mistakes that weaken them. That's about how the Soviet Union collapsed at the time. Mass protests began only when people realized that the government was too weak to suppress the protests by force.
Another my music recomendation to u, will be rap-group "Kasta". Actually, in my opinion Finnish rap sounds quite easy to our "south-east school" of rap. And Kasta is bright representative of this style. That's why I liked Ruger Hauer, when I heard their early tracks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3iASpXQdpc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRNWC5QSCiY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ObxvXa-uVQ
and as a bonus one of my favorite track of that style, that goes through all my mp3-players since 2004:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87_ud2CzP64
Ofc, the choice of a rap artist is always a very individual thing, because the coincidence of perception with the author is important here. And the Russian language is especially difficult in this, because it is very "descriptive". We have a lot of words that can be described in dozens of different terms or have different meanings depending on the context.
>I stay the same as I was.
Despite what they told
How wrong I was to choose this path.
Not caring to those who offered personal benefits,
And thus taking away my right to be a scoundrel
I'm not rushing to kiss the feet of others
I'm not rushing to enter paradise as a driver of other people's backs
I'd rather be alone, I'd be a outcast and superfluous
Just not to forget that it's barely audible
In the hustle and bustle of the daily journey
It is impossible to help everyone, but someone can be saved.
I would like not to get off the road ahead of time
The thought hits my head: are we on the right side or not?
Sellers from the stalls sell everything they could:
Food, lust or the sermon on the Mount.
I buy only my humble piece before it gets cold
I stay the same as I was
The Cuckoo-kun
>The goal is not just to understand mistakes of your parents, but most important to accept, that this mistakes was unavoidable in those circumstances
This comes near to being a biblical theme btw.
>And in the same way, propaganda captures our attention by using words and describing situations that affect our basic fears
Nah, it doesn't sound like a foil hat theory at all. I think some nazi leader has described this exact same thing in Nurenberg trials. Basically claiming that all you need to do is to create fear around your people, and they will act accordingly. And one could argue that nazis were a masterminds in propaganda. (Did some searching, pic related. It was Goering.) So yeah, no wonder we see a lot of fear being spread around us right now.
But you make a good point there. And I admit, I shouldn't be paying this at all so much attention. But tbh, following this situation is not just anxiety causing. It's also thrilling. Makes it's much more harder to keep distancing myself from it. I think I'm the kind of person who sees a danger, and finds peace by confronting the situation until it gets boring (until it's been rationalized, often times.) Having interest in such (societal) phenomenons, these times and the change happening around us is.. capturing.
>dream of a person who will just come and destroy everything they associate with the world of inequality.
That actually does explain it alot. That reminds alot of Thanatos, the death wish. Maybe that's what the part in ourselves we project & romanticize in such persons.
>But this is only because it was talked about in the West and we did not have our own vaccine, so the state did not know how to make money on it.
But wait a moment. Am I mistaken in my thinking that most of the media in Russia is state owned - so it also gets the funding from state? How can it make money with such a news?
This is actually a weird detail, and I remember wondering it myself long time ago: do you have any guesses why didn't he get vaccinated at first? Wouldn't it only have made sense (PR wise?) Not only for the good of Ruskis, but also for the Sputnik? I could imagine that Ruski healthcare system would've saved alot of money by making everything in their will to get people vaccinated. Even if he didn't want to take the vaccination, I'm quite sure it could've been staged?
>This was done to destabilize the social sphere there
Idk If I've told you earlier already, but one article I saw from IT-expert claimed that in Canada they cutted some server from Ruskis, and anti-vac propaganda fell by 95%. You can only imagine how it's been in west. Not only that, but from the past pandemic (the swine-flu) we had a fresh memory of unwanted side-effects. The shit was already ready to hit the fan even without Kreml's trolls. This has been a proper shitshow (and tbh we Finns had it pretty "cool", when comparing to some nations, I think.)
I get the destabilization part, but I think there's more to it. We see some political mobilization happening. It's actually legit stupidest thing I've ever witnessed so far in western politics. People gathering together, to express their hate towards vaccination, and putinist-russophiles being in the background of it all. I am 100% if all hell breaks loose, this political movement is the next Otto Ville Kuusinen's "Terijoki's government."
Talking sense to this people is also impossible. It's totally comparable to trying to "negotiate" with Flat Earthers about science. Nowadays I've grew so sick of it that I'm not even starting with them, as it always ends up in "no, I haven't seen with my own eyes what's in the vaccine." (compare to argumenting with Flat Earther where you have to admit that you haven't seen a globe being a globe with your own eyes.) :D
That being said btw, I'm sure they are putting something in the tapwater. First we had Flat Earthers, and now this. The symptoms are shockingly similar.
>By the way, do you remember what I said about the rise of nationalism in Europe?
I'd say the more exact term is "right-wing populism." That's how it's known in west. And yeah, I'm actually not surprised. The Kreml trolls often times spam shit to support them 24/7 in everything. Idk if the politicians themselves even need to ask for it, or if they do it just for "mutual benefit" as a "unselfish favour." I think Marine Le Pen's party in France has also been accused of such connections. Some even have possibly got funding from Russia.
Our right-wing populistic party have always been accused of such connections also. Only recently they separated themselves "clearly" from Kreml's agenda. At the same time the Kreml trolls started a campaign to call them "fake-opposition party", and every since they've supported the anti-vaxxers. Needless to say, every putinist-russophile in Finland is an anti-vaxxer nowadays. :D
There's actually a weird political split happening between people in Finland. Non-NATO & anti-vaxxer (representing distrust to government and pretty much everything around them) and NATO-positive & vaccinated (representing trust to government and experts.)
>as we fined people for lack of vaccination
Are you saying that in Russia it's mandatory by law to take the vaccine? And if you don't take it, you get fined?
What comes to music, I'm not a genre believer. I like Kino alot tho! Will deffo keep listening more. Feel free to link whatever comes to your mind.
Paperi-T might've filmed some of his videos abroads, even in Russia, I think? Pyhimys is an interesting character all in all. He's said to be an genius in academics, but he quitted his studies just when he was about to graduate as a teacher of natural sciences (his excuse being: I don't want to be an authority.) Both of them have been really influential in 21st century music scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp41V5bzFCc
This dude killed himself, right before publicing his first album. Such a shame, he could've made it really far. But maybe that's the only way to capture something really Finnish in art.
Yeah I read about it. I wonder what's happening when they do open it. Potentially a big dip inc. Could there exist buying opportunities?
I think I said this already before to one of the anons, but anyways: We saw some news about possible false flag happening in Ruski soon, even killing thousands of Ruskis, and that's how they going to justify big time mobilization & marshal law, and even worse.
Such predictions from western intelligence have strangely been quite accurate lately. Apparently their tactic is to publish information before Putin has time to act, so that people would see thru his PR missions.
Good evening! o/
Театр одного semens.
>think I said this already before to one of the anons, but anyways: We saw some news about possible false flag happening in Ruski soon, even killing thousands of Ruskis, and that's how they going to justify big time mobilization & marshal law, and even worse.
i think he is capable of doing such a provocation like that, putin looks like he literally got insane
There has been even some fears about "false-flag operations" happening in our ground. Would I be surprised, if one day we happen to find a Russian child hanged to some pole in Finland? No, I wouldn't, but I'd be 100% that it's not Finns who did that. But how do you tell Ruskis that?
And yeah, I'm sure I can only begin to imagine it. Your embassy asked some days ago for Russian minority to tell about "wrongdoings by Finns." I think it's all bullshit. I view them to have the same fear than us: if Putin chooses to attack here, the bombs will not separate between civilian's Finnish or Russian background.
Btw, there might be also another false-flag be coming on your ground, check:
Well, what really can I say to a Finn?
You should understand. We are not soviet Vankas (совковые ваньки). We must perceive the world (and Ukrainians) as it is. Without illusions.
As said Dmitry Kubarev (a pro-war Nationalist and devout Orthodox), a Russian man is the overlord, the master. He must be respected and feared. Just as the Ukrainians crawling like slaves in front of the Anglo-Saxons, they should also crawl in front of us. This is what the real national revival of Russia is. And not these bastard international tales from Soviet shit.
The Russian goal is to put an end to Ukraine and Ukrainians, they shall not exist at all. That means, in 10-20 years we're to finally re-format these lands and re-Russify them. The task of Russification is relevant for the whole of Russia (Putin did not accidentally voice such a big word as DECOMMUNIZATION). And our main enemy in this are Soviet Ukrainians and Soviet Russians.
I might have to explain the context a little bit. (I think I explained this in past thread already, so for some I might be repeating myself.)
1) Pic related, it's from Russia-Finnish border.
2) For past decade or so, we've seen alot of estate & land being bought around our strategic points. The experts view they are 100% meant for purposes in warfare.
3) Also we've seen alot of Kreml troll's attempts to demoralize us. Why would you need to demoralize a peaceful country?
4) The attempts to make us seem hateful, which is not true. One could even argue, that the Kreml trolls literally want us to hate Ruski's. In internet you see this alot, but in everyday social life there's literally 0-hate.
There's russophobia, in a sense that when people are fearful, it's easily turning into hate. But I wouldn't say it's centered towards Russian minority. Even fool can separate between Russian minority and the real problem. Russian people inside the Russia is a different story, in a sense, that some westerners might actually think that Putin represents the will of all Russian people whom most support his actions (you know yourself how accurate this view is, but I might want to add, that not everyone realizes that Russia isn't exactly a democracy.) People are wondering why isn't him being stopped, even that Putin's going full crazy in our eyes. Instead we see all the videos and whatnot of Russia turning into full fascist state, kids worshipping the "Z", etc. - and the worst: the Kreml's trolls as a cherry on the top of all.
And what comes to people dying in Donbass etc: It's easily disregarded as fiction. Russia's leaders & media has lost all it's credibility because of propaganda. We've seen all the absurd claims coming from Russia's media. Even if it was sometimes telling the truth, it's easily not concidered as real information. This widens the gap between understanding each other by a whole lot.
Anyways, the most important lesson from nowadays: You shouldn't rely too much on what you perceive on internet to be the people's opinion. Only small percentage of people make up for most of narratives in internet, and some are being bots to create synthetic narratives. Real people in real social situations is a whole lot of different thing.
Westerners could use some healthy level of dialogue with Ruskis today. Just the regular people. Now more than ever. If we are being left with the "picture" of us transmitting thru media, we are fucked.
Cannot get msgs thru on my pc. Trying to get some sleep, got early wake up. I'll be answering this tomorrow asap!
Good night Cuckoo-kun!
Good night Ruskis!
> 1) Pic related, it's from Russia-Finnish border.
What do you want me to look at? I see forest cut downs. How is cutting down trees a threat to your country? If there is something to see on this map, please show me.
> 3) Also we've seen alot of Kreml troll's attempts to demoralize us. Why would you need to demoralize a peaceful country?
How do you know they are Kremlin trolls? Why do you assume it's an organized attack sanctioned by the Russian government?
> And what comes to people dying in Donbass etc: It's easily disregarded as fiction.
What exactly is fiction? War in Donbass is fiction? Thousands dead is fiction? Are you sure I'm the one being lied to?
> Russia's leaders & media has lost all it's credibility because of propaganda. We've seen all the absurd claims coming from Russia's media.
Which media are credible? Western media post footage of the Donbass evacuation, Gorlovka, a man saying farewells to his daughter and crying, and say it's a Ukrainian father who readies himself to fight Russian invaders. They post pictures of Donetsk struck with Ukrainian Tochka-U, 23 dead 37 wounded, and say it's a Russian attack on Kharkov. As Vladimir Putin called it, an empire of lies. I guess, doubting them and pointing out their lies makes me a Kremlin troll in your eyes, I've been called this before.
Gn, bro! I have a lot of work last days, so i'm finishing it late night often. But our direction let us to work from home. I think that's cause they try to keep company from programmers to resign, cause it-specialists is the first group, that leaving country. Working from home much cheaper then office work and prices growing faster then companies here could rise up the salary. So I could sleep until midday. Anyway, we all need a good rest
Паска-Ланка
>downs
Name of your syndrome btw.
No need to attack me. Make an argument. What of what I said is wrong and why?
He brings a map, but I see nothing on it. (Probably, there is something, but my guess is, it is a fearmongering with the map, that shows nothing, as a tool of it. Awaiting his kindly explanation.) He says the war in Donbass and its victims are 'easily disregarded as fiction', but there are international observers and there are hundreds of thousands of refugees living in Russia and sharing their stories. I think it was a perverted and morally wrong thing to say, but this person seems to sincerely believe this wasn't happening, all was a 'Russian lie'. And finally, he says Russian media aren't to be trusted, but this exactly are my thoughts on Western media.
So, this is my points. Now attack the points, not me.
Let me correct myself, I don't think one media are completely not to be trusted, and other media are always to be trusted. We are seeing where this approach leads us — in 'easily disregarding' Donbass war and its victims 'as a fiction'. Read everything. Know who the authors are and what their agenda is, understand why they write the things they write.
>They must've learned a lesson or two about revolutions.
It is a great mistake to think that ordinary Russian can perform revolution now. Revolutions in March and October of 1917 were succesfull mainly due to the rulers were weak and do not have wide support across the people. In contrast to, the current Kremlin elite are united and very strong, they are assured in their actions, so, there can not be any kind of paralysis of the political will as it was in 1917 and 1991.
Another reason you obligatory have to understand - Russian mindset. Majority of Russians are ready to live poorer and worse and they will not blame deadly the regime for this. There should happen smth crucial (like famine, military defeat or great weakness of the regime) to revolution goes even imaginable. In contrast to Western states, people here are very perseverant and literally ready to grow potatoes in their gardens without a thought like "let`s fuck up the government".
>what makes the regime improve?
Look, politicians here understand that without different points of view on the problems there would be worse. So, some parties (mainly Communists and the party run by Zhirinovsky) do this work - they can critisize the regime, but only without western-minded things like freedoms, democracy and so on. They can speak about corruption, bad reforms, etc and the regime listen to them. These parties, ofc, do not gain the power, however, they perfrom a great job. This is the way to hold a some kind of political tension under heavy control. So, it works.
>But why do you feel so threatened about it?
When media in 1990s spoke about freedoms, we gained the great increase of criminals and banditism. So, western-like freedoms were considered here in the way "I do all I want and if I have a competitor in my business sphere, why I should not kill him?" Then, private property here lead to the rise of extremely rich and politically influential peoples; they did not care about how to improve their businesses but how to gain from it. Literally, they acted as vultures, you know. Then, democracy here lead to the situations like - another criminal boss influential enough to become a politician used "democtratic elections" to be get an official power.
This attempt to honestly implement Western mentality`s core principles lead to the disaster. How corruption is fought in Western states? By free media, for instance. Here the best way is to set some bounds for it and use secret service to control it (as they are feared). No liberal methods, just make the regime more rigorous. This is the way the problems are often solved here - by the incresing state control over everything they found crucial.
So, the Western methodology does not work here well only due to historical path.
>to justify their existence by creating the fear of progress?
No. The ideas of social progress and the existance of only one way of it have shown themselves unworthly. So, some of our thinkers developed the concepts of "restricted democracy" and there may be the path to slowly make the regime better for ordinary people. And it is comletely different to Western democracy.
>liberals vs. conservatists
Here liberals are often considered as almost traitors, the force, that should not exist here. And this is the tradition, you know.
>you have kinda harder battle with it
I fully agree with this. Mindset is slowly changing now, you are right.
>to be between east & west
And it happens again and again, for ages. This problem could not be definitely decided, so, the traditional responce - let`s apply some western social practices here and combine them with that we have, the history shows it works well. By the way, eastern intellectual influence here was always weak, so. this is not fully true that Russia is between West and East. This is just our traditional collectivistic mindset which is unsimilar to eastern one.
>a trap for Putin in Ukraine
For Russia, it looks like the situation where we have a little choice. Ukraine became a hostile and it was preparing for fight; look, when Georgia in the mid-2010 made the same with huge increase in military expences, all we know what then happened - our peacemakers were killed and Georgia`s military treatened Russia`s territory. With Ukraine, the situation is much more dangerous. With mighty Soviet era military forces which were improved by modern western weapons, with NATO military advisors who trained Ukraine`s army, with the near-extremist ideology (just look - Bandera, the Nazi criminal, turned into national hero), even with hostile national anthem (just look at the FULL version of poem which is the base of anthem) - all these showed that we can not avoid a conflict in future. Western propaganda say - hey, this is the peaceful state, they are trying to build democracy and so on. But all of these points are not true. All the signs showed that they were preparing for war.
And now, EU tightens the relations with US and NATO and increase military forces. This is the strategic escalation and it is good for US, but not for EU.
>with the new generations?
Look, the attempt to set western principles here was exteremly unsuccesful. The same with the new generation - they are much more focused on gaining money, more egocentric and so on. They are more limilar to westerners, it is true, but some of their traits are non suitable here. An expressive example is that some of young people say that they are going to be politicians just to have an opportunity to get corrupted and therefore to get rich.
rom the other side, the processes of integration western models here are shading, so, the way you are speaking about is not an option.
>Democracy needs a working metabolism
SU collapsed is due the lack of the rotation of its elite too. But now, the situation is similar to Russian Empire traits - the ruling class raised, their childred are getting power and so on. SU core principles standed against this, without them, we face the situation occured from the forgotten past. And there may be that this is near natural here.
>a different kind of dream
Communists had this, right. So, they thought that everyone across the globe needs their liberation from capitalistic yoke. Just to say - Western leader repeat these actions. As for me - it is insane to think that there can be one best ideology, only one way of social progress and so on. People in USSR were confident about this via Marxism terms (way of changing social formations, society without oppressor classes and so on) and EXACTLY the same happened to westerners - they are firmly believe that the only way is democracy, free media and so on. Did you catch it?
But now, there are not such dreams here, just only geopolitical arguments. And our propaganda do not try to justify the actions leading to the re-integreation of some of the former SU states in ideological terms, it speaks just only about economical links, the common minset and history and so on. The absence of ideology allows to name the things by their names, without ideological terms about "communism", "dictatorship regimes", "lack of freedoms", "our common dreams" and so on.
As I see, the only reason for Putin attack Finlad is placement of nuclear missiles. Talks about that Russians are oppressed there is just a point to press on the different states. The same was with Baltic states, Kazakhstan and so on. This is not a definite military treat.
that's basically my opinion about that shithole I happened to be born in.
IT specialist temporarly in Arminia, I'm going to migrate into west europe eventually
Do you agree?
tishe churka ebanaya, chemodan vokzal aul
I am perfectly white with blue eyes, not like you, noviop
prufai churka ebanaya, vse mi znaem tyt shto ti mat tipichnoi hachihi s gorbatym nosom i pizdoi nebritoy, a batya tvoi gorilla ebanaya kotoraya oslov v gorah ebala, lol)))
fluent english, bro!
He speaks that mother of is a very good woman and his father is a brave and well-educated man.
Hmh. Yeah I can get behind the importance of such things. That's like a silent revolution going on. That's a really good sign for sure.
How do you view the Ruski art ideology? Does it have the same split what you see in society? Or is most of it criticizing the problems you see around you? I understand that open criticism is, well, illegal. Every now and then I see bits of it happening in Ruski art tho.
Like in west, one could argue, that all art is "leftist", because it's meant to criticize often the mainstream right-wing system (for many of the problems can viewed to capitalistic thinking and unequality.) There exist claims that right-wing art is even impossible in modern times (I think closest thing to it is often viewed more like entertainment, but not real art.) But afaik, art has some roots in being a state controlled thing in Ruski, rite? Such as socialist realism. Is that still so? How free is the art in Ruski nowadays?
To put into more simpler way: do you find there exist some sort of battle in art, that could be viewed as battling the mainstream system, and uniting it's people under same constructive ideology? You know, some times art is the trendsetter, even more ahead of it's time than science. Are Ruski artists free to show the inner conflicts of society, and between people & other nations?
Idk if you've heard about this weird weird gallery exhibition, where some Ruski artist had painted overly pompous paintings about Putin. As far as I understood, he expected people to view them as critic towards him. But instead young woman appeared to the gallery, and started worshipping and even praying before the paintings. (I tried to look up for the news about that but couldn't find it.. it was maybe on the last decade or so?)
Anyways, I'm still baffled about what that was. Umm. Was that real? Was it part of that exhibition? Was the woman hired to do it?
Not too long time I also saw this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiI5UuCiEoU (Look about 1:40 ->) I think these woman are doing the exact same thing? So in the gallery, could it all have been critic after all? BECAUSE! I remember about the gallery case being presented in news like "Wtf is this absurd shit?" And the only explanation westerners can think of is "they must really be brainwashed." But little did we know.. :D
The Chimpanzee story is awesome. I wonder what would happened to the officials, if they would have had some sort of integrity & humour, and let the people's voice be heard.
>Mass protests began only when people realized that the government was too weak to suppress the protests by force
A hypothetical question. What if the Russian army gets beaten and humiliated in Ukraine, like the Alexander Nevzorov suggested? Do you think it could really launch a revolution, if it makes the state look weak?
Kino - Kukushka has been my definite favorite so far from the one's you linked btw.
Ruger Hauer is a combination of three artists, all known for their controversial opinions, cynicism, and such. It was a part of their brand to be "conflicted", almost in a crackling way. In one interview one of them said, that they are known from lighting up a verbal fights with eachother anywhere, any time. You can see this even happening in their music, criticizing each other in somewhat harsh way. (Like, not in a friendly manner even, but like with brutally realistic criticism which someone could view as really insulting. But maybe that's all telling from their friendship.) Btw, fun fact: they are known to be anons lurking in Ylilauta. :) (They have alot of references to anon culture in their music.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OnfKIai_ns
This could be interpret as a song for darkest part the anon mentality which we see pretty much everywhere in anonymous imageboards. Kynnet, kynnet = nails, nails (not having a grip / holding on to the only & last part of society where you feel like you can belong.)
Weak to find the culprit in another weak one
No poor knights at the round table
Who took the manhood away from the anons?
The mitten is straight and clogged with ducts
In the state of survival, we don't have space
I, I, I, pollute the climate of others
There is no right-left-winged horizon
Only disappointed who hopes to renovate
Chorus:
I won't adjust, help/
Something is missing, the grip slips, without a nails you won't get a grip/
Sensitive, insecure, lonely/
It just connects with a feeling that there is no us
I'd think this one is our nr. 1 gangsta-rapper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a0HoHjcnHw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3eeXWqUqVw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0WzomrUoSo
In some of his songs he is suggesting revolution where all the rich people should be killed, and their golden retrievers to be eaten. (All tho his music makes up for a great growth story also, a hateful & multi-problematic addict with destructive mentality growing to help one another, the hate maturing into creative power. In his later life he got a college education and works as social worker nowadays helping young segregated people.)
I wouldn't necessarily call the Finnish music as light, all in all. It can be that as the spring is setting in, my mind is wondering to more smoother side, and it shows up in the music I tend to listen atm. Anyways, I think the most expressed state of mind & emotion is melancholy in our music scene (as it has a special place in our culture.) Sometimes you can hear the artists almost celebrating the melancholy, turning it into.. umm.. joy almost, or a meaningfulness? I can feel this in Kino's songs also.
There existed a hope in west, that if they publicly release intel from near Putin, he couldn't justify the war to Ruskis.
Maybe, just maybe, this same logic could work with the possible false flag. It didn't work with the war, but false flag is a whole lot of different thing. It might make people really mad if he kills his own people, and people see through it.
That doesn't sound too good. More like a sick ideology.
Compare the picture to how Russian troops were gathered to Ukrainian border in satellite pictures.
>Why do you assume it's an organized attack sanctioned
We've academic studies done about this, and our journalists have written even books about how they operate.
These same journalists have also brought cases to court, where putinist-russophiles have tried to silence them.
>What exactly is fiction
What I'm saying is that if your media is known from lies & propaganda, it's impossible for people to trust it, even if they every once in a while tried to tell the truth. Especially if the Kreml's trolls push the lies on, it's easily disregarded as bullshit.
Besides, it's too easy for people to not sympathize with the invaders. Westerners can easily be thinking "well, if they didn't want that, maybe they shouldn't have attacked in the first place." There is hundreds of civilians dead already, and millions have lost their home. Now imagine, how it looks like if the Ruski media tries to garner sympathy for their side. It's found as hypocracy.
You said what you said: 'And what comes to people dying in Donbass etc: It's easily disregarded as fiction.' You dismissed people killed and displaced as a fiction, 'Russian myth'. Is it this badly underreported you've never heard of it? If you wished so, you could read about it. It's not only on Russian media you were taught to distrust, Western sources provide the information and numbers too, just look it up.
Western and Russian media have different narratives. 'Volunteers' and 'legionnaires' vs 'mercenaries', 'democratic revolution' vs 'unconstitutional overthrow of the democratically elected government', 'occupation' and 'annexation' of Crimea vs 'reunification with the Russian Federation through a democratic referendum', 'Russian world' and 'multipolarity' vs 'free world' and 'new world order', etc. Another example, Kiev calls Donbass militia 'terrorists', we call them militia, and Western sources call them Russian-backed separatists.
So, back to the topic of 'Russian disinformation'. There is one peculiar thing about the Western narrative:
The reason Russian media known to you 'for lies & propaganda' is that this 'Russian disinformation' thing is an important part of the Western narrative. It allows muting an alternative viewpoint: removing Russian media from social networks, banning them (not in the USA, but in the EU), down-ranking (Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo) and removing (Qwant) their websites in search results. It also gives an opportunity to refute real facts as 'Russian disinformation': from the recent, they did it with the Hunter Biden's lost laptop, and later it turned out they lied in people's faces.
We, on the other hand, have this 'mirror measures' thing (just in case you wondered about restrictions implemented by Roskomnadzor after my words about the EU banning Rusian media -- they played the 'mirror measures' card).
That's exactly my point: the elite must've learned to suppress the possible revolutions by any means. They are not taking any changes with it, because it can end up them losing their lives.
And look, I sympathize with the Ruski people. It's impossible not to after getting to know your minds better. We've had civil war on our own. We still carry the trauma with us. I wouldn't suggest a revolution which means the blood spills on the street. Cultural revolution on the other hand - well, it's your own business, and in your own hands. I'll get back to this later.
>literally ready to grow potatoes in their gardens
My perfect utopia would be agricultural village democracy, where people would live off earth. (I'm not even kidding.) All tho I see it kinda impossible by now. The gears of evolution won't ever be stopped. I'm quite sure westerners could grow potatoes also, but wouldn't take long until they've building some sci-fi systems, and I would be sad panda wishing we just could stick to potato farming.
But yeah, I've get what you mean. I've heard one expert talk about this like it's a cultural virtue in Ruski's - to be able to suffer. I think he also said that in some sense it can mean that something good will happen if you suffer.
And tbh I can respect that. It really is a virtue in my eyes. All tho we Finns might be closer to Ruskis culturally in that sense, than western-west. Many of us have grown up in small villages in countryside, and we are literally living inside the forests 24/7 even in cities. Besides, the urbanization hasn't yet completely happened, it's still taking place. And nowadays we even see some movement back to the countryside, people being fed up with cities.
>Literally, they acted as vultures, you know
I understand. Isn't this bit of a risk also now? If Ruski economy is to sink, sooner or later the vultures will come flying in, once everything is cheap enough.
And I get how you view democracy, but couldn't that be viewed as one really fucked up experiement, and a learning point? How you are describing it, it's like democracy being exploited by cleptocrats and it turning to cleptocracy, before it even got time to establish the foundation for any democracy. You, the people, in the end are the democracy.
Maybe it's indeed some form of cultural movement which needs to come first. You cannot just implement a system if people don't know what they should be aiming for. I think your system is now in a place, where it's trying to protect the corruption, with the means of corruption. How to break the cycle from repeating?
And I get it, you can't adopt western methods just with a snap of a fingers. You need a Ruski method to implement it in reality. Check this out: <- These things could be already be viewed as a democratic opening. One could argue, that without the state suppressing the organization of political opposition, you could already be re-forming the system, without no blood spill. I get that there's some idealism involved, I get that the state won't give it a change so easily. But then again, the maybe cynicism towards progress has to be met with some idealism.
>Here liberals are often considered as almost traitors
Could there, in theory, exist a Ruski way of it? Such that it wouldn't be viewed as traitor. Such that would be your own idea, born embracing the Ruski values. I think you partly already described this.
>the near-extremist ideology
I know I'm stepping here on a thin ice when speaking with Ruski, but I hope you can trust that I'm not trying to offend you.
Afaik, the right-wing politics been grossly over-exaggerated in Ruski media. The far-right got like 2% of the votes and got 0 seats in parliament in Ukraine.
Even the Azov, which has been painted like a devil's manifestation in Ruski media, is not all nazis. Only minority of them are. And tbh, this might sound bit harsh, but any country doing a revolution might need some nationalistic forces. And no, I don't mean nazis. Think it more like this way: if Russia was to free itself from corruption, wouldn't you need someone to back you up from it? If you think of characters like Bandera, they prolly aren't celebrated because of nazi links, but for the strive for independency.
There are far-right people & even neo-nazis in Russia also. And afaik, Putin's regime is arming them also. We've seen the pictures of Wagner's leader with nazi tattoos on. Would it be fair to claim that all of the Ruskis are nazis because of them? I'm not meaning to insult, but trying to prove my point how propaganda might make things seem like.
And btw, just to make clear: western media is not all that thrilled about Azov. "Far-right" is easily being interpret as nearly a curse word in mainstream media. Besides that, some of the western nation has forbidded gun sales to them because of far-right links.
>they were preparing for war.
One could argue that they absolutely needed to. Their country was invaded. This whole conflict could've ended long time ago, if Ruski army did not intervene. Things have got much more complicated by now. Cannot this all what you were referring to, be interpret as a opposition force to get rid off Ruski influence?
I might add, that there always existed a change of partnership, but with new foundation, with respecting Ukraine's sovereignty.
If you want to play a game of thought (I know this must sound ridiculous to Ruski, but anyways), think of Russia joining to EU. What needs to happen for it to be possible? Isn't that exactly what see happening in Ukraine? Even the violent inner conflicts, as the old structures & power won't give up so easily. Could there have existed any other way? That being said, I'm sure no one wishes for violence. But think of any of the Ruski's neighbors. Haven't they had to fight themselves free, if they wanted to be independent (I'm not saying I know this for a fact, but as a Finn it's kinda easy to relate to where Ukraine is now.)
>think that there can be one best ideology
Democracy is a system to different ideologies find a common ground under same roof. If you look at any democratic parliament, you see hundreds of people being in eternal conflict with different opinions, different ideologies, etc.
As a side mention, when I'm talking about politics IRL, we rarely talk about democracy or free media, but rather about different ideologies, economy, and so on. Only when talking with you Ruskis the concept of democracy & free media comes up so frequently.
>But now, there are not such dreams here, just only geopolitical arguments
Don't we see the geopolitical arguments manifesting in reality just now, being good for no one?
I think that's (the common dreams) is something that could be very healthy for Ruskis to possess - and not just the ones coming from state. Common ideology doesn't have to mean another USSR. Rather a way to get away from the old destructive path. A new ideas, perhaps? Maybe let a science & arts lead the way? I could also imagine internet bringing some promises as a platform. One could even argue, that the internet has brought the most democracy to the world of all inventions. (Just for an example, we have one party which basically uses internet as a platform for voters to dictate what the politicians must vote.)
But isn't that possible even without that ever manifesting in reality?
I mean, imho I don't view it as realistic that our country would ever possess nukes. But I view it realistic him saying that to justify an invasion. Even without him thinking that we were any sort of threat. Every Finns know that we are never going to be invaders. He cannot be so fool to think that we are threat to Russia. But he can be "smart" enough to justify his actions for people with presenting the possibility of it, as a means for propaganda.
I mean, that's one way to look at it I guess (I don't want to claim any form of superiority tho or offend, being a guest to your imageboard.)
I think the whole Europe & even USA is slowly sliding into more socialism. Not marxist-communism. But the cute kind of socialism with free market etc. But not in a capitalistic way. Well-being & strive for equality being in center. But then again, it's complicated, because in the eyes of capitalists it might seem profitable to sheeplings be content and happy.
= I don't know if we are in the middle of evil communist plot or evil capitalistic plot. Leftists are sure about latter, where as right-wingers are sure about the former. Or is it not evil at all, but only a balance in a from of compromise after all the shit in history? Idk.
There's alot of IT-specialists fleeing from Russia, I hear. Where are you headed?
Do I see Ruski being a racist towards another Ruski here? :D Is this a thing in Russia?
Is that true that on the swamps of Finland the tourists and locals see the gray silhouettes, the ghosts? or something like that
Can you say something interesting about the finnish/karelian swamps?
also, check the russian pastes about болотные механизмы from /sn/ 2ch
Нахуй ты постишь на английском, долбоёб? Скачай гугл переводчик и сразу мне переводи свои высеры. Некультурно-это как я бы к тебе понабижал и начал сугубо по русски что там внушать.
PERKELE PERKELE SPURDO SPÄRDE EBIN!
Tra vihkan põdreid!
Lol. I posted in those epic swamp-thread in 2010
> It's not only on Russian media you were taught to distrust
I weren't taught to distrust it. I were taught to distrust all media.
>And what comes to people dying in Donbass etc: It's easily disregarded as fiction.
The sentence ends: Russia's leaders & media has lost all it's credibility because of propaganda. We've seen all the absurd claims coming from Russia's media. Even if it was sometimes telling the truth, it's easily not concidered as real information. This widens the gap between understanding each other by a whole lot.
>It allows muting an alternative viewpoint
Nah. I'd say that it's because of aggressive spread of disinformation and propaganda. We don't see any other country do it. Yes, there is bad media in west also. But it's nothing even remotely comparable to Russian state owned media & propaganda machine.
I won't even start with the Kreml trolls, but they have basically destroyed the internet. Billions of fake accounts already deleted, which all of have been spamming pro-Kreml propaganda 24/7. The western social media companies have rules about spread of disinformation, and they don't see Putin's regime respecting them. And I don't mean just "Ruskis voicing the other side of the story", but a real harsh disinformation and lies - such as anti-vac propaganda just for an one example.
And yes, it's a proven fact that it alot of it has come from Russia. In Canada they cut of one internet operator working from Russia, and as a direct consequence the anti-vac propaganda fell by 95%.
If you view this as a matter of "westerners are being brainwashed and that's why they cannot trust Russian media", you are oversimplifying it by alot. We know to be critical towards media. And that's an issue for Russia's state propaganda.
Besides, as we have seen even our own journalists being haunted by putinists, and we've heard about the cases of journalists getting silenced & even killed in Russia, what do you think that does to perception about Russian media?
So now we have reached a point, that even if your media tries to tell the truth, most people easily just think that how can they know if it's true or propaganda - just like it has been so many times before?
And this isn't for Russia only. Every bad media gets the same treatment here. It doesn't take many mistakes to harm the reputation, if you want to viewed as trustworthy media. In Russia's case we are not even talking about mistakes, but a systematical attempt to spread disinformation.
видел болотные механизмы в живую?
Нет конечно, просто на тот момент был увлечен всякой спиритической тематикой. Я тут постил в предыдущем треде, что у меня на тот момент бизнес был с этим связан - привозил в дс всяких шаманов и монахов и пр духовных наставников. Даже пытался собрать какую то тусовку местных колдунов в магаче году в 12.
Yes. We have many ghosts here. Swamps you see alot of them, because long time ago they were often used as cemetaries. And not only that, but according to our mythology, swamps where places where evil sicknesses and spirits were exorcised to, away from the living. So that what makes them scary, because that's where all the evil things have been forced to belong.
But that's not all of it. It's been said that treasures have been hidden to swamps. Precious things, such as gold and diamonds, that have needed to be hidden. Often times they are accompanied with the spirit of the one's who have hid the treasure, they have remained as guardians. Indeed, sometimes in the dead of the night you might hear noises, when these spirits are guarding their treasure and tinkling with it.
But do not be fooled that all the spirits are have ended up to the swamps. They are literally everywhere, where they can find even some rest in the limbo. They need their silence to try to find a way towards the light. Their peace better not be disturbed, so when walking at swamps or forests, you better respect their need for silence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will-o%27-the-wisp
You can see such things in swamps and lakes. Science have tried to explain them for centuries. But what does the science really know about things that cannot be explained with rational mind?
I'd be pleased to check the pastes, but I barely can navigate here because of the language barrier. Could you help me out with an URL or something? Thanks.
Idk if you knew, but one explanation for the etymology of 'Finland / Suomi' is as follows:
'Swamp' = 'suo' in Finnish. 'Suo' + 'maa' = Swamp earth. Suomi.
Finland. Fen = swamp, land. Fenland, Finland.
You get it?
Btw, that thread is really thrilling in an autistic way. Makes me want to buy a metal detector and go dig some swamps and reveal all the mysteries.. but would that annoy the spirits, then?
Привет. Извините, я не хотел оскорбить вас английским языком. О чем ты хочешь поговорить?
Sprärgels spögles! xD
You hate elks? o_O What's that about?
Какие же фины дегенераты!
Привет из ненецкого автономного округа. К нам на культурные мероприятия коренных малочисленных народов часто из Финляндии приезжали.
It's so stupid. Pay less attention to what ukranians talk. It's all psyops and shit. Putin needs only Ukraine, Finland can go fuck itself, there is no point in war with it and never will be any.
Привет из ненецкого автономного округа. К нам на культурные мероприятия коренных малочисленных народов часто из Финляндии приезжали.
Привет из Финляндии!
Ваш народ разводит северных оленей? Так же, как наши саамы в Лапландии.
Как живется в Ненеции?
Me nimetame soomlased nagu põdrad)) Tegelikult mulle meeldib Soomes, aga vihkan soome turistid Eestis. Nad on kõik joodikud või kuradi idioodid. Vot nii)
minä olen virolainen. Minä asun Viros.))))
Kun sinä asut? Uusimaal?
The information ain't from Ukrainians. The "pre-bunking" is often from US, who has the means to do it. They mean to pre-bunk possible false-flags to prevent 'em from happening. What is there to gain with such psyops?
Their purpose for it so the westerners already knows whose done what, so the Putin's regime can't shift the blame and use it in PR-operations (which is what the false flags are in their essence.)
And look, one could argue that the pre-bunking also might protect Ruski people, if the false flag is to occur in Russia, and it's pre-bunked.
I hate Finnish drunktards also. I can only imagine how it's been for you. I'm sorry for Estonia. Maybe your government should ask some compensation for the traumas.
Why is the Finns called 'elks'? Is there some particular reason?
ole hyvä kirjoita suomeksi))
Ymmärrän englantia, mutta en halua kirjoittaa sillä.
Niin, että sitä vaan, että ehkäpä Viro voisi kysyä hallitukseltamme jotain korvauksia suomalaisten känniääliöiden aiheuttamista traumoista. :D Itsekään en niistä hirveästi perusta, ellen sitten itsekin ole kännissä. Voin vain kuvitella mitä Tallinnan ihmiset ovat joutuneet todistamaan tässä vuosien saatossa.
Miksi kutsutte suomalaisia hirviksi?
Kutsumme suomalaisia hirviksi, koska Suomessa on paljon hirviä)
älä unohda, että Suomessa työskentelee paljon virolaisia. Ja itse asiassa jotkut eivät käyttäydy paremmin kuin suomalaiset juopot)))))
I benefit
Religious, patriotic, globohomo, irredentist, pacifist, humanist: all these scums will fight each other as long and as bloody as possible, I wish.
Gerontocrats will esolate their authority, and it'll crush their degenerative reigns, or they'll do it by themselves when thermonukes will be finally launched
XLR8!
INRI!
Hail Chaos!
>the elite must've learned to suppress the possible revolutions
Yes, they did. However, ordinary people did the same and no one may seriously wish the revolution occurs. Another point to afraid of - what happend in the series of revolutions across the globe past years. Here the word "Maidan" is deadly demonized across people.
>agricultural village democracy
I spent a lot of time reading the literature about cults and methods to control them. Across the cults in Russia, I definitely may say that some of them are built of the principles you mentioned, they are like - we may use all the technological advances and live in clearest villages with a little number of connections with "the big land" and so on. But very often all these intentions just led to another cult. The most famous of them are headed by German Sterligov, but there are tens of unknown, often based on esoteric ideas.
>something good will happen if you suffer
You almost near the worst narrative of our propaganda. Media tell us - yes, you will live poorer, you will lose you good level of wealth. But in turn, our country will rise mighty again and you will be proud of it while soft westerners (without our resources) with the drop of wealth will suffer enomoursly and then will fuck up their governments and so on.
And yes, this is national trait - to suffer in silence and not to complain. Again, this grows from our history.
>the vultures will come flying in
This was possible in 1990s due to weaken regime and the absence of private property in SU. Now, all the resources/plants and so on are under heavy control and the regime cares about it.
>some form of cultural movement which needs to come first
I think that this is the only way to implement here some of the best western practices. And it have been happening for these years. Young people just become less collectivistic, less ready to submit and trust to their superiors, more focused on some social activities and so on. Again, it takes tens of years, it takes the whole generations.
So, I agree with your points about that intellectual/cultural interactions with the West may lead to more freely society here. But now there may be that these processes will be broken and we again face some upgraded SU practices.
I thought a lot about this. I saw that people are not ready to see the democratic rules, to widely use free media, to be more responsible for their town/society and so on. I clearly understand that this may be forced to be faster if Russia`s rulers push this cultural shift and start to grow more democratic mindset. I found that these processes are like wild gross, they occur due to intellectual and cultiral influences. Look, this is not about democratic state by democratic mindset.
>your own idea
The current idea is the decorative democracy and it works well. As I mentioned above, this may lead to more democratic society through next tens of years. But now, it looks that these processess, at least, will go slower.
>These things could be already be viewed as a democratic opening
No. Just a handful of people who do not agree with the current events. Such people always occur, they may protest against everything they don`t like. But this is incredibly far from any democratic opening. A drastic democratic opening may occur if the regime will say - build democracy and be fast.
>a thin ice when speaking with Ruski
This is the most interesting thing - how does Western narratives show that all is ok with Ukraine.
>far-right got like 2% of the votes and got 0 seats in parliament in Ukraine
I saw these arguments. Just to say - Zelensky recently has banned all the parties except the most radical and right-winged.
The argument is simple - radicals do not need any place in parliament, moreover, it is very bad for them to have an "official" face. For instance, head of Azov organization was in very good relations with head of Ukraine Security Service, Avakov. Many of such radicals were honoured by Ukraine officials. This is secrete services` duty - to prepare such radicals and semi-terrorists.
>the pictures of Wagner's leader with nazi tattoos on
I`ll be answering on this tomorrow, as well as post.
>the Azov, which has been painted like a devil's manifestation in Ruski media, is not all nazis
The key point to understand why they are radical nationalist is to look into the history. While WW2, some of Ukrainians joined to Hitler in order to fight against SU. Their key concept was very simple - for centuries we were oppressed by Russian (moscals, the word they used), so, now we have an excellent opportunity to kill them all. Such organizations, loyal to Nazis, were headed by Bandera and Shuhevitch, were not fully exterminated by SU forces even in 1950s, especially, in western regions of Ukraine, many of these people survived. And their ideas were not forgotten. After SU collapsed, step by step the reanimation of these ideas and forces occured. What we see now are just the results of many years of careful work. From re-interpretation of history, creating and re-creating national myths, creating their own narratives to armed far-right forces. One may argue that this is just building of nation, but.. All these things were extremely radical to Russia and Russians.
Just imagine - Soviet propaganda considered Russians and Ukrainians as the parts of one nation who won the Nazi Germany. The thought that they can fight against each other was savage. And what Ukraine leaders did to destroy these narratives? The central words of Maidan were not just only about EU association but about killing Russians and "who aren`t jumping is Moskal". When I saw this, I was initially thought that they are got high, but they were deadly serious. Ukrainian propaganda then started to blame Russians to be the key reason of all the worst happen to Ukraine. So, with many Nazi symbols and materials revealed across Ukrainian positions while the military operations continues, I do not have serious doubt about radicalist over Ukraine.
>Their country was invaded
Can Luhansk and Donetsk Republics be called as separatist forces? Yes, sure. Were they supported by Russia? Only partially. But then, in 2014-15, was there full-scale Russia`s invasion? No. Just to say - Putin was blamed as national traitor due to he did not include these regions into Russia as happened to Crimea. There were all the possibilities to do this, especially as Ukrainian Armed Forces were weak that time. Moreover, Minsk Agreements were about incorporating these regions back to Ukraine. Russia insisted on this. Ukraine could easily agreed and peacufully return these regions. But they have started to increasing their military forces, their propaganda became insanely radical to Russia, they have started to call NATO to incorporate Ukraine. There was not any need to do this after Minsk Agreements.
>as a opposition force to get rid off Ruski influence?
Yes, sure. For Russia, it was very bad itself, but wasn`t a great treat. But then, when NATO military advisors, NATO weapons occured there, it became a real treat. When NATO has started to build their military base there, it was a sentence - there will be a war.
I think that the key reason is simple - Russia can not allow such migthy state as Ukraine to become hostile and to lose it from Russia`s sphere of influence. The ancient recipe to crush Russia by Bismark - to split Ukraine from Russia.
>Ukraine's sovereignty.
You may blame me that I use historical arguments too much, but I do it again =)
The history of Ukraine passing latest near 300 years show us that they often sell their sovereignty and betray who believe them. This occured with Ottoman Empire, with Poland, with Russian Empire, the same we see at early SU years while Civil War. And again, Ukraine sold its sovereignty to US and GB.
It is not a good idea to think that Maidan occured in 2013-14 was just a spontaneous actions, it was good organized, well-planed and implemented on the base of an experience of Middle East and Northern Africa revolutions. Btw, the expressive first actions of the regime rised after Maidan were about heavy restrictions of using Russian language. Of course, many Russians and Russian-speaker in Ukraine could not agree. The true freely and democratic state can not do this without a great tension or possible civil war. No one health-minded ruler can act in such a way, it just deadly. So, another law was about native nations in Ukraine with Russians excluded. This was vile discrimination by nationality and language.
The current example - one of Ukraine`s official was fired after one phone call from US.
>think of Russia joining to EU
Just to say - in early 2000s, Putin led Russia to joining to NATO, but these intentions were rejected.
So, some incorporations of Russian institutes were succesful. I mean Bologna process, WTO, WHO, Council of Europe and so on. In early 2010s, Medvedev spoke about opportunity to set visa-free regime with EU. Ofc, conservative forces were enraged, but there was not any sign of large split of Russian society.
>democracy & free media
So, these term are ideological term, do you agree? If you have these things, you do not have to speak about them. Here, we have them only to some extent, however, this is not considered as a great problem and there are always takes place a political discussions. So, if Russians discuss free media, the key often point is - to whose interests this contrete media serves to? No one belive that free media could exist, they always highlight narratives of some political force.
But there may be that I do not clearly understand this concept.
>the geopolitical arguments manifesting in reality just now, being good for no one?
Any conflict is good for no one of ordinary people, but they still occur.
The argumentation therefore is simple. Loss of Ukraine or hostile Ukraine will be a great treat to Russia. When Zelensky spoke about nuclear weapon he may want to possess - it`s a direct treat. NATO expansion is a direct treat. After Maidan, the loss of Russian military base in Crimea is inadmissibly.
Yes, they did. However, ordinary people did the same and no one may seriously wish the revolution occurs. Another point to afraid of - what happend in the series of revolutions across the globe past years. Here the word "Maidan" is deadly demonized across people.
>agricultural village democracy
I spent a lot of time reading the literature about cults and methods to control them. Across the cults in Russia, I definitely may say that some of them are built of the principles you mentioned, they are like - we may use all the technological advances and live in clearest villages with a little number of connections with "the big land" and so on. But very often all these intentions just led to another cult. The most famous of them are headed by German Sterligov, but there are tens of unknown, often based on esoteric ideas.
>something good will happen if you suffer
You almost near the worst narrative of our propaganda. Media tell us - yes, you will live poorer, you will lose you good level of wealth. But in turn, our country will rise mighty again and you will be proud of it while soft westerners (without our resources) with the drop of wealth will suffer enomoursly and then will fuck up their governments and so on.
And yes, this is national trait - to suffer in silence and not to complain. Again, this grows from our history.
>the vultures will come flying in
This was possible in 1990s due to weaken regime and the absence of private property in SU. Now, all the resources/plants and so on are under heavy control and the regime cares about it.
>some form of cultural movement which needs to come first
I think that this is the only way to implement here some of the best western practices. And it have been happening for these years. Young people just become less collectivistic, less ready to submit and trust to their superiors, more focused on some social activities and so on. Again, it takes tens of years, it takes the whole generations.
So, I agree with your points about that intellectual/cultural interactions with the West may lead to more freely society here. But now there may be that these processes will be broken and we again face some upgraded SU practices.
I thought a lot about this. I saw that people are not ready to see the democratic rules, to widely use free media, to be more responsible for their town/society and so on. I clearly understand that this may be forced to be faster if Russia`s rulers push this cultural shift and start to grow more democratic mindset. I found that these processes are like wild gross, they occur due to intellectual and cultiral influences. Look, this is not about democratic state by democratic mindset.
>your own idea
The current idea is the decorative democracy and it works well. As I mentioned above, this may lead to more democratic society through next tens of years. But now, it looks that these processess, at least, will go slower.
>These things could be already be viewed as a democratic opening
No. Just a handful of people who do not agree with the current events. Such people always occur, they may protest against everything they don`t like. But this is incredibly far from any democratic opening. A drastic democratic opening may occur if the regime will say - build democracy and be fast.
>a thin ice when speaking with Ruski
This is the most interesting thing - how does Western narratives show that all is ok with Ukraine.
>far-right got like 2% of the votes and got 0 seats in parliament in Ukraine
I saw these arguments. Just to say - Zelensky recently has banned all the parties except the most radical and right-winged.
The argument is simple - radicals do not need any place in parliament, moreover, it is very bad for them to have an "official" face. For instance, head of Azov organization was in very good relations with head of Ukraine Security Service, Avakov. Many of such radicals were honoured by Ukraine officials. This is secrete services` duty - to prepare such radicals and semi-terrorists.
>the pictures of Wagner's leader with nazi tattoos on
I`ll be answering on this tomorrow, as well as post.
>the Azov, which has been painted like a devil's manifestation in Ruski media, is not all nazis
The key point to understand why they are radical nationalist is to look into the history. While WW2, some of Ukrainians joined to Hitler in order to fight against SU. Their key concept was very simple - for centuries we were oppressed by Russian (moscals, the word they used), so, now we have an excellent opportunity to kill them all. Such organizations, loyal to Nazis, were headed by Bandera and Shuhevitch, were not fully exterminated by SU forces even in 1950s, especially, in western regions of Ukraine, many of these people survived. And their ideas were not forgotten. After SU collapsed, step by step the reanimation of these ideas and forces occured. What we see now are just the results of many years of careful work. From re-interpretation of history, creating and re-creating national myths, creating their own narratives to armed far-right forces. One may argue that this is just building of nation, but.. All these things were extremely radical to Russia and Russians.
Just imagine - Soviet propaganda considered Russians and Ukrainians as the parts of one nation who won the Nazi Germany. The thought that they can fight against each other was savage. And what Ukraine leaders did to destroy these narratives? The central words of Maidan were not just only about EU association but about killing Russians and "who aren`t jumping is Moskal". When I saw this, I was initially thought that they are got high, but they were deadly serious. Ukrainian propaganda then started to blame Russians to be the key reason of all the worst happen to Ukraine. So, with many Nazi symbols and materials revealed across Ukrainian positions while the military operations continues, I do not have serious doubt about radicalist over Ukraine.
>Their country was invaded
Can Luhansk and Donetsk Republics be called as separatist forces? Yes, sure. Were they supported by Russia? Only partially. But then, in 2014-15, was there full-scale Russia`s invasion? No. Just to say - Putin was blamed as national traitor due to he did not include these regions into Russia as happened to Crimea. There were all the possibilities to do this, especially as Ukrainian Armed Forces were weak that time. Moreover, Minsk Agreements were about incorporating these regions back to Ukraine. Russia insisted on this. Ukraine could easily agreed and peacufully return these regions. But they have started to increasing their military forces, their propaganda became insanely radical to Russia, they have started to call NATO to incorporate Ukraine. There was not any need to do this after Minsk Agreements.
>as a opposition force to get rid off Ruski influence?
Yes, sure. For Russia, it was very bad itself, but wasn`t a great treat. But then, when NATO military advisors, NATO weapons occured there, it became a real treat. When NATO has started to build their military base there, it was a sentence - there will be a war.
I think that the key reason is simple - Russia can not allow such migthy state as Ukraine to become hostile and to lose it from Russia`s sphere of influence. The ancient recipe to crush Russia by Bismark - to split Ukraine from Russia.
>Ukraine's sovereignty.
You may blame me that I use historical arguments too much, but I do it again =)
The history of Ukraine passing latest near 300 years show us that they often sell their sovereignty and betray who believe them. This occured with Ottoman Empire, with Poland, with Russian Empire, the same we see at early SU years while Civil War. And again, Ukraine sold its sovereignty to US and GB.
It is not a good idea to think that Maidan occured in 2013-14 was just a spontaneous actions, it was good organized, well-planed and implemented on the base of an experience of Middle East and Northern Africa revolutions. Btw, the expressive first actions of the regime rised after Maidan were about heavy restrictions of using Russian language. Of course, many Russians and Russian-speaker in Ukraine could not agree. The true freely and democratic state can not do this without a great tension or possible civil war. No one health-minded ruler can act in such a way, it just deadly. So, another law was about native nations in Ukraine with Russians excluded. This was vile discrimination by nationality and language.
The current example - one of Ukraine`s official was fired after one phone call from US.
>think of Russia joining to EU
Just to say - in early 2000s, Putin led Russia to joining to NATO, but these intentions were rejected.
So, some incorporations of Russian institutes were succesful. I mean Bologna process, WTO, WHO, Council of Europe and so on. In early 2010s, Medvedev spoke about opportunity to set visa-free regime with EU. Ofc, conservative forces were enraged, but there was not any sign of large split of Russian society.
>democracy & free media
So, these term are ideological term, do you agree? If you have these things, you do not have to speak about them. Here, we have them only to some extent, however, this is not considered as a great problem and there are always takes place a political discussions. So, if Russians discuss free media, the key often point is - to whose interests this contrete media serves to? No one belive that free media could exist, they always highlight narratives of some political force.
But there may be that I do not clearly understand this concept.
>the geopolitical arguments manifesting in reality just now, being good for no one?
Any conflict is good for no one of ordinary people, but they still occur.
The argumentation therefore is simple. Loss of Ukraine or hostile Ukraine will be a great treat to Russia. When Zelensky spoke about nuclear weapon he may want to possess - it`s a direct treat. NATO expansion is a direct treat. After Maidan, the loss of Russian military base in Crimea is inadmissibly.
No sehän selittää. :D
Paljonkos se vodka maksaa nykyisin Virossa? Oon kuullut, että nykytrendi on hakea sitä jostain Liettuasta tai Latviasta halvemmalla. Olisiko Viron syytä laskea alkoholiveroa?
Miten osaat puhua suomenkieltä noin hyvin?
You want discussion about what? About situation in Ukraine? Its absurd. Like a bad dream, but you cannot wake up. Something like this.
My subjective vision as a person ho lives and work in Russian: Im depressed, really dissapointment. I look around and what I can see? Some of my loved ones are euphoric, some are trying to leave Russia for a better life. The usual order of things has changed and you have to adapt and sacrifice familiar things to overcome this thriller
> Where are you headed?
Armenia, Georgia, Serbia. But in the long run we all plan to settle down in Europe/America/etc.
> Is this a thing in Russia?
Yes, many Russians hate each other. There's even a sarcastic phase "Russians never give up on each other" meaning that Russians often try to fuck with each other. General rule in immigration is "never trust your own people".
"North Korea" is the most likely going to happen here, you know.
It's Russia. It's always shit.
>This comes near to being a biblical theme btw.
Well yes. Actually bible and other religious texts are very underrated as a basis for since. Problem of religious is that it don't give rational descriptions of it's laws. It's just say "U must do this, cause in other case u'll go to hell after death." Nevertheless, religion is a collection of scientific knowledge and conclusions obtained in a primitive way and explained on the basis of primitive logic. But sometimes the right answer is more important than the way it was found. For most people, modern science is technically the same religion, because they do not understand all the processes within the phenomenon and just hone the conclusions that are described in school textbooks.
The proof that religion is a science of the past is that until recently (in the West, about the 17th century, in Russia - about 18/19), all healers were religious people. Writing appeared all over the world in monasteries and the first chroniclers were monks. The first book Guttenberg printed was the Bible. Giordano Bruno was judged by respected scientists of his time, who were sure that what was written in the Bible was the only science, and Bruno was just an urban madman who wanted to mislead ordinary people. Just like in our time, when scientists who said that covid could come from a Chinese laboratory were stigmatized and deprived of grants. The fact that electricity is magic was indisputable among the entire scientific community until Franklin described it.
In fact, after I realized all this, it gives me no peace, realizing how many things we still consider random or uncontrollable phenomena only because of the lack of measurement technologies. But this is what concerns the material side of the bible. Until people invented antiseptic tools and devices that recognize bacteria, it was easier to intimidate ordinary people that God would punish them if they ate the wrong food (like pork, for example, which in hot countries quickly becomes a source of bacteria) or fuck everything that moves.
In principle, we already know how to digitize human thoughts. Immobilized people can type on the keyboard.
I think soon we will be able to control human emotions without external, material sources or any wave fields.
So if we find a scientific way in which we can help a person to accept some biblical laws, like "do not steal" or "do not kill", then the result will be much more useful for society. Because the execution of these laws, based on the fear of God, so far shows low efficiency due to the animal nature of man. But all the same, if you imagine how many deaths there could have been if ancient people had not been afraid of God, then the picture does not look so bad.
> I think I'm the kind of person who sees a danger, and finds peace by confronting the situation until it gets boring (until it's been rationalized, often times.)
Yes. In such a situation, the method of studying the phenomenon that worries you helps to cope with excitement. When you understand all the mechanisms that led to this situation, you become calmer, because you better understand the ways that can help you personally avoid danger. For example, you remember how depressed and excited I was myself 3 weeks ago at the beginning of our discussion. And the answers to your questions made me calm down myself and try to analyze the situation in order to try to answer as correctly and clearly as possible. Now, emotionally, of course, I am still worried about the people of Ukraine and I believe that this war should not have happened. But logically, at least I understand that this is not a reckless act of a crazy dictator, at the end of which the whole world may disappear, but simply the struggle of warring criminal clans. There were reasons for the occurrence of this situation on both sides and now we just need to try to prevent as many deaths as possible and start thinking about how to prevent this in the future. It will be more useful than continuing to feel sorry for yourself because of the inability to influence what has already happened.
>Maybe that's what the part in ourselves we project & romanticize in such persons.
The craving for creativity and desctruction lives in everyone invariably and it can be dangerous to suppress one of these feelings. Just like any other phenomena in our life, they cannot exist without their antipode. It's just that if you accept that you have both, then you start looking for opportunities for the safe realization of your destructive desires. And the answer to how to do it always lies in how you realize the opposite desire. For example, if I understand that my creative abilities come from the work of the brain, then the way to get out of destructive emotions is the work of the body. It can be a street fight, or maybe a fitness trip or a game of football with friends a couple of times a week. For me, the choice is obvious. But if you just give up your animal nature, you very quickly discover that the mental one works poorly. After all, sport, for example, helps to supply the brain with oxygen, And without a healthy body, the brain begins to work worse. Also, if a fighter refuses to work with the brain, then in a fight he does not have an advantage over a fighter who has studied different combat strategies and analyzed the behavior of the enemy.
> Am I mistaken in my thinking that most of the media in Russia is state owned - so it also gets the funding from state? How can it make money with such a news?
Ok, Maybe I didn't put it quite right. I meant that the government could not make money on it. When we talk about earning money for the government, we mean the opportunity to steal taxpayers' money. When they invented their vaccine, they just started "selling" to the public. Of course, they injected the vaccine for free, but they took much more money from the budget for its production than it actually cost, and the difference was withdrawn to their personal accounts. The same is true with other anticorrosive drugs. Our tests cost more than in the West, masks and gloves - as well. And this despite the fact that the manufacture of these things in Russia was much cheaper than there.
As for the media, in fact none of them directly belongs to the state. But the state controls them all, having family members and friends in the leadership. And also at the expense of advertising budgets. And of course at the expense of the laws. If the opposition media calls a spade a spade, then they block it. But we still read them through social networks and through vpn.
>Idk If I've told you earlier already, but one article I saw from IT-expert claimed that in Canada they cutted some server from Ruskis, and anti-vac propaganda fell by 95%.
They could simply block a group of ip addresses that belong to the main troll factories. Canada is not such an important country for our propaganda, so there are not so many propaganda channels allocated for them.
>Talking sense to this people is also impossible. It's totally comparable to trying to "negotiate" with Flat Earthers about science.
Yes, there really aren't that many of them. Just because of their behavior, they are heard the loudest. Well, because they put pressure on the same primal fears that we talked about earlier. Therefore, I say that it is worth simply learning to ignore these processes. No normal government, even ours, will ever give real power into their hands.
My opinion is that if one day I find myself in a country where such loonies rule, then this will not be a reason to worry, but simply become an excuse to move. Because it will mean that in this country, indeed, most people are stupid enough to deny science and continue to live in it less safely than even in today's Russia. Because in today's Russia I can live, get an education and have a normal job. And in the country of the loonies - no.
>why didn't he get vaccinated at first?
As I have already said here
, there is a small group of the population that sincerely supports Putin
>schizophrenics and pensioners, and religious people
As you can see, they all have something in common. This is a blind denial of science. In fact, I think this is another manifestation of the Stockholm syndrome. For these people, due to their age or peculiarities of thinking, it is impossible to master new technologies or understand science. Therefore, it is easier for them to believe in their exclusivity as a species that is not subject to all these "techniques of Satan". Just as I am sure that my life expectancy will be greatly reduced in the country of the loonies, they are also sure that science will kill them or deprive them of eternal life in heaven. Therefore, they are ready to fight for their ideas. After all, for them there is no difference - to die from science or from the bullet of a policeman dispersing a demonstration. Therefore, Putin is genuinely afraid of these fanatics. But they are very convenient for his power, because they are ready to sincerely believe in propaganda and fight the opposition, creating the appearance of real support for Putin.
To get their support, Putin worked for a very long time if he was openly vaccinated, they would stop believing him. After all, their danger is that they sincerely believe in their theories and consider Putin as a defender against this satanic force.
>teacher of natural sciences (his excuse being: I don't want to be an authority.)
This is a very good idea. about the times when I organized all sorts of new age events, I talked to a Tibetan monk after the lecture. And we were talking about one Ukrainian tantra teacher, whom he saw here. This Ukrainian guy was, like many who are fond of Eastern philosophy in the West, dressed in all sorts of amulets and rings and asked to call himself Shiva. After looking at him, the monk just laughed and said:"The more outside, the less inside. If you have inner strength, you don't need all these "crutches". If you don't have it, then nothing material will help you." I think this applies in all spheres of life. Just like those bikers who dress in leather and chains and like loud motorcycles to emphasize their masculinity. But does a really confident man need to prove his masculinity to someone through clothes?
Certificates also won't make you smarter. They are useful in a resume when applying for a job. But even if you don't have them, the employer will see your brain at the interview. And during the work, the certificate will not make decisions for you.
Of course, it is still important to maintain adequacy here, so as not to become so self-confident as to believe that you do not need additional education at all. But it's also stupid to be proud of the fact of the certificate itself.
>This dude killed himself, right before publicing his first album
Really
A really strong track. And the fact that a guy killed himself increases his sincerity and value. It is a big tragedy that many artists choose such a profession because they feel the world more strongly than others, so they perceive their moral defeat more tragically than physical death. I've listened to some of his early tracks and they're certainly different from this one. It seems that initially he wanted to speak out, but no one heard him and he began to do more pop things, about all sorts of gangsta things that sell better and make it easier to gain popularity. But in the end he realized that on this way he surrounded himself by people and things that he despises and can no longer get out of this trap.
In the track "Edelleen Edellä" he even has a line that seems to confirm this, if I understood everything correctly:
Kello tikittää, tikittää, kello päällinen tyyris
Samat kaverit samoila silmillä
Pysytkö enää kyydis
Sait mitä pyysit tääl on muutakin kun sielu myynnis
This is about what I was talking about in the context of accepting yourself with own mistakes. You just need to perceive your own mistakes as a necessary payment, as a material for realizing the value of the right path. You cannot be perfect like Jesus, you are an ordinary person and your mistakes were laid down by millions of years of evolution and surviving of your ancestors. You have already become stronger if you have realized the nature of these animal behaviour and learned to control it in your thoughts and actions. It doesn't matter at what age and under what circumstances.
Today I'm not going to advise you something deep, just a couple of tracks of the last time. In general, I only listen to foreign music of certain genres from modern music, but these tracks of recent years sound interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP5uLT8oAfU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjjgZUKlcwQ
And another group, which is not quite Russian, but it is from the east of Ukraine - from the city of Kharkiv, which our army bombed from the first days of the war. They make a good quality synthwave. The theme of cosmonautics was very popular in the Soviet Union, so we are very fond of music that makes us think about space exploration. Many genres of foreign music were banned, but music like this was often played in Soviet children's films about space, so in any post-Soviet country such music causes special nostalgia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOa5zGl7CkU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIAcQPPEJ10
I'll answer you next post tomorrow, bro. Want to go bed a bit earlier. Must normalise my regime of sleeping to be more productivity.
Good night!
Hi, Finland anon. I fucking hate this war. People on both sides are dying for fucking nothing, and their cities are destroyed. Russia will be driven back to mid 1980-ish era with drugs, alcohol, dictatorship and shortages of food and all kinds of goods, and will soon fall apart because of all
of this.
P.S. my grand-granddad was badly wounded in 1944 in Karelia when fighting the Finnish army and died some days later. Still I've never had anything against Finland or other states.
I hope all this will end well (meaning the coup against Pynya, decommunisation and democracy at last)
>Here the word "Maidan" is deadly demonized across people.
Yeah this one I somehow sensed by myself. :D
>built of the principles you mentioned
I want to specify, that I wasn't exactly meaning a cult. Not even a hippie commune. More like back to the times of aboriginals. You know? Hunting, fishing, growing tomatoes. Dreaming about having the motivation to build a new cottage. Maybe the waifu would be on the mood later on the night.. You know? Easy life without rat race. It's endless cycle of work, without any guarantee that anything good will come out of it.
If the nukes start flying, and it will destroy all the technology, I wouldn't be missing it much. If I were to survive. I hope some library would make it tho.
I've seen this documentary about segregated Russian people, that didn't know that ww2 had ended. :D You are prolly talking about such cults?
>worst narrative of our propaganda
Like a treasure in the end of the rainbow. I get it.
>But now there may be that these processes will be broken
I see this fear also. I wouldn't be too surprised if Ruski's were cut off from the internet completely. Not by the west necessarily, but your regime. If they need to control you 100%, that's the only way. And apparently the Ruski officials have claimed that they have the means to do that.
All tho Ruskis in the last thread mentioned that you've become pros in dodging the censorship etc. There has actually been a campaign in west, asking people to offer more routes for Ruskis to avoid censorship via Tor.
>drastic democratic opening may occur if the regime will say - build democracy and be fast
I think I told about this earlier: it would be so easy to wish for the regime to do the job, or the next leader. I mean, sure, it's possible. But the people in power means they have good lives because.. well, they are in power. Why would they ever give up on that power?
So yeah, I get it. It will take time. This is something I've heard from other Ruskis aswell.
>how does Western narratives show that all is ok with Ukraine
Long story short: If people want democracy, west is automatically sympathizing them. Remember, we have a history of being under authotarian rule aswell. That means _all of us_ in Europe. And we've had our revolutions. It's a long tradition of fucking up the elite, who don't want to give up on power. That has lead to good life in Europe, it has been found to be ideal. It's in core values, the strive for equality. Leaders must work for the people, not vice versa.
So from our perspective, we'll always sympathize with the people's will. Not the leader's. And what we saw in Euromaidan, looked like people expressing their will.
This also might explain, why the Putin had such a "I'm democratic" mask on his face for so long. You see the danger here for him? If I were to guess, Lukashenka will be next, and it might already be happening as we speak.
I realize that this might sound bad to you, but think of it like this. Your regime takes you as hostage. People want democracy. How can you get out of that situation, without help from outside?
You understand the logic? When people seek to change things, west easily recognizes that as the real power. People give the mandate to their leaders, after all. They have the right to rip it off also.
If you find it worry some, this doesn't apply to Russia. You have nukes. Just like it doesn't apply to China, or North-Korea. Idk what would happen if the majority of people showed a strong signal, but the leaders wouldn't give up. And in the end, even without nukes, it's an internal issue. This is the second reason why Ukraine easily gets all the sympathy. The invasion. Video related.
>Zelensky recently has banned all the parties except the most radical and right-winged.
It's not ideal. But the country is in middle of the war, and democracy can be used as a weakness. Look, putinists are using it as our weakness, and we are not even in a war with Russia. Worst case scenario, they can halt all the decision making in parliament in Ukraine. There are exceptions to when democracy has to be more authoritarian. War is one of them.
What comes for the future, apparently Ukraine has applied for EU. Applying for it can be found as a guarantee for democracy. No one can get to EU, if they are restricting the rights of minorities.
That being I said, I understand that Russia has interests in Ukraine. But if Ukrainian people don't agree with that, and don't want any of that, what is there to left to sympathize Russia with?
Besides, as I've been explaining here to other Ruski aswell, Ruski really has a problem getting it's voice heard. Your regime, media & Kreml's trolls have destroyed all the credibility. If you look at western standards for leader, or media: an one lie, and if you get caught, you lose trust. Now we've seen years of systematical spread of disinformation. Even if Russian leaders tried to tell the truth for once, why would anyone believe them? The video nr. 2 related.
Now imagine how this looks to west: we see dead civilians, cities destroyed, and at the same time we see your leaders saying with straight face that there's no war. And not only that, but we've seen this happen for years already, your leaders representing a totally different reality. It is not meant for the western audience to even believe, only Russian people.
What comes to Minsk agreement:
>"A major blockage has been Russia’s insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms."
Also, you remember the elections they had there? You had two Finns there as election observers (Johan Bäckman and Janus Putkonen.) These are found in Finland to be criminals with less than 0 trust. This was even before 2014. Idk about the rest of the west, but from Finn's pov that's kinda problematic when you think of self-governing part of Ukraine, which have established power with such people.
Even tho, I must admit, if I were Ukrainian leaders, I would've prolly made that deal anyways. Atleast if I had known where things would be leading. But then again, it's their land, and they must not feel very comfortable dealing with diplomacy gun next to their forehead.
>You may blame me that I use historical arguments
I don't blame you, but imho these are things for Ukrainians to decide. Even if I had opinion about them, after all, it's an internal politics.
I get tho that from Ruski perspective, it might feel fearsome to see all this happen around their borders. And I realize the change of these being US operations. Euromaidan, and next Belarus, if I were to guess. But then again, if the goal is to get rid off corrupted system, and give power to people, doesn't that work as a justification? Revolutions can't after all be set up, without the will of majority. I think this has been lately proven in Afghanistan. You can't just force your values on people, if they don't really want it themselves.
>Putin led Russia to joining to NATO
I heard about this in past thread. I didn't even know about before, and tbh I was a little shocked. I wonder what went wrong.
>So, these term are ideological term, do you agree?
I do get that there are different ideologies involved, if you look at different medias. Even the same with democratical parties. They serve their own interest group, with their own ideologies.
But it's not just all that. It's the basis for that: law to secure if you want to gather to opposition (form your own party for example), or create new medias (express your opinion in mass scale.)
Independent media can be characterized for it not being controlled by state. I'll give you an example: Idk if you know, but Finland were top 1 in Free media index for years. We dropped to spot 2, because of our state owned media fucked our ex-Prime minister Juha Sipilä in the ass for some shady-ish deal (apparently there wasn't proven corruption, but a situation where he should've acted more carefully to not give the impression he's corrupted.) So as the journalists found about it, they basically ripped him apart. The PM then tried to affect the state media to not tease him anymore. This ended up couple of journalists resigning because they felt like their journalist freedom wasn't respected.
You get the idea? Truly free media cannot be affected by anyone, it's meant for the media to work as a separate entity from the elite. What comes to private media with different interest group and ideologies, it's about transparency - letting your readers know who runs the media etc. Rest is up to journalists & readers, and this is when the media literacy steps in. Truly objective media is.. well.. a really subjective concept. :)
Do you want to give your opinion in what's the most free media in Russia? I might be interested to check it out.
>Loss of Ukraine or hostile Ukraine will be a great treat to Russia
But couldn't there also exist the change of partnership, with the Ukrainians? We don't have to go back many years, when we saw Russia doing business with EU-countries and so on. Why wouldn't it have been Ukrainians will to do business with Russia? (When saying this, I get the realities now. It might take even decades for relations to normalize. And even that looks like a faraway thing, first there must be peace.)
In the end, this is what I said in last message also. Is the doom of Russia of not letting go of the old geopolitical dreams, and the inability to cope with world changing around them? There always existed the change to choose different path of co-operation.
Can talk about anything you want. Seems like Ukraine is a hot topic atm., and I'm more than willing to hear different opinions about it.
I can imagine that this splits the people. Understanding the Russian pov has been a trip. A lot of different opinions, a lot of geopolitics, a lot of corrupted leaders.
And then there are people losing their lives and loved ones. Politics don't do justice for the victims.
Idk if I sympathize more with the Ukrainian civilian in the bomb shell, or the Russian soldier who didn't want war, but is forced to be in the frontlines and cannot change things. They both might be equally innocent to this.
There has been a video circling about Russian helicopter who shot his rockets to sky, apparently to avoid shooting civilians. (Btw: My grandpa told stories about similar happening in 1939-1945, some CCCP bombers dropping their bombs to forest to avoid bombing civilians.) Idk why I brought this up, maybe to remind that not all humanity is lost even in the middle of war. This might sound stupid, but maybe this is the silver lining in your depression also. If Russia was all euphoric right now, wouldn't things be much more worse?
I hope something good will eventually come out of this mindlessness. I mean, it feels like we live in middle of acceleration in change. Things will return to sanity sooner and later. They have to, right?
What do you view as best hope for the situation to end and things returning as close as normal as possible?
Welcome, if you choose Europe. (Weird to say this as I barely identify as European at all. More like just a regular Finn.)
>"Russians never give up on each other"
This is weird national mentality. All tho not unheard one, I remember Bulgarians saying about this same about each other. I remember in my old Wow-realm one Bulgarian said that there's nothing he hates as much as other Bulgarians.
Hey there, Ruski anon!
I would hate it alot more, if I didn't see Ruskis hating it also.
You might want to check , I wrote a story about my grandpas memoir about 1939-1945 war there.
We had a whole villages lose all their boys (men) in 1939-1945 war. The past war trauma has risen it's head again, Finns being afraid that we might be the next ones (if you look scroll up, you might understand better why.) Besides there exists a huge change of escalation even if it wasn't for us.
You think the coup is possible? Democratic Russia is something I'd hope to see also, because maybe that would bring some hope about eternal peace with Russia. It's rarely people's will to go to a war.
Btw, if you are into history, I might recommend this for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qABVeIspok (I recommended this in past thread also for another anon.) It has a unique point of view in things. Two friends talking, who both had their closed ones fight in the war, in different sides.
>Actually bible and other religious texts are very underrated as a basis for since
There has been happened alot of shit in the name of religions, and still is. But then again, how would the world be without the values and order that religions have brought on earth? I've heard about sociological theory about origins of religion, to "sanctify the good of society." It makes actually a lot of sense. Some foil hat theorists view religions as form of control, at the same time not realizing that it's exactly what world has needed. An order. From the point of view of power, one could claim that it's the greatest propaganda to ever having existed.
Besides an societal point of reference, the symbolism in bible is genius. I personally find it one of the greatest psychological books ever written.
>God would punish them if they ate the wrong food (like pork, for example, which in hot countries quickly becomes a source of bacteria) or fuck everything that moves.
Holy shit that's an illuminating thought. :D I've never thought of it like that before. You can actually explain even the suppression of gay-rights by religion following that logic.
>Just like in our time, when scientists who said that covid could come from a Chinese laboratory
Do you think this is the case? I've seen studies about China being the first one to spread co-vid disinformation, and one of their main points was to "deny the claims about China as origin of the virus." Okay, that could be viewed as defense measure, but it didn't limit to that. They systematically wanted to spread propaganda for the virus to spread as much as possible, and people not to get vaccinated.
That brings to my mind: why haven't western leaders criticized China? Trump tried, but he did it relatively mildly (and Trump really doesn't have any credibility left, one could even claim that he did a great favour for China.) Was it the lack of the proofs? Was it out of fear with conflict with China? If something I know, it's that the China could've been easy target to blame.
>So if we find a scientific way in which we can help a person to accept some biblical laws
I've heard some neurotech expert claiming, that the closest thing of eternal life people can have, is to transfer their consciousness to computer. I know, it's science fiction for now. And tbh, it even sounds like a trap. Btw, this might offer an interesting thought if you think of the simulation hypothesis. What if we are an AI running on deserted world, and some super computer is the only thing left to secure consciousness?
>understand that this is not a reckless act of a crazy dictator, at the end of which the whole world may disappear
I'm having a bit different view. I still find him as crazy dictator, but not so crazy as one might think. If there's a conspiracy theorist in me, I might actually think that there's a people pushing a new world order. It's becoming evident. Their plan is to push democracy everywhere, and global market system. If I were to guess, we all are pushed towards under one system. Out of our free will. The only last ones to stand in the way are authoritarian leaders. That's been the case for long.
And tbh, I might not even find it a bad plan at all. It needs to happen. It's our best hope to survive and have good lives in this planet. I find it morally justified. Isn't that what we all want in the end? One planet, one people, one law. Religion, science. Sounds much Illuminati right? What if it's the best idea for the planet?
I'm not saying that it's necessarily planned like some shady conspiracy theory in a cult like manner. But in the end most of us want to cease the tribal wars for ever. We want to see equal planet. Is there another way to do it?
I'm not saying that all world leaders necessarily plan ahead such plan. But I think the global culture has brought this idea to every leaders mind. If you think it, this must be the ultimate destination for most of the leaders. Way to unite, and way to secure the planet. Way to co-operate. Sometimes, it needs destruction to happen. To pieces of puzzle to snap to their place.
I will answer to rest of your message tomorrow. Gotta get some sleep to wake up tomorrow early.
Good night!
I will continue to answer tomorrow. Gotta get some sleep now.
Good night Ruskis!
Good night Ruskis!
There will be absolutely no protests in Russia, hohol niggers deserve everything happening to them.
Don't fool yourself. North Korea is the most likely option.
You may be interested in casualties. For now it's 18 thousands Russian military personal (Ukrainian civilians around 40 thousands, but I don't have information about Ukrainian Army).
Putin is ready for 30-50 thousand of military casualties, from his opinion "it's nothing comparing with what we are doing here".
What religion are you? What do you think about the prospects for a reboot of Western Christianity? For example, the creation of a church professing Orthodox Christianity of the Western Rite of the Finnish tradition (Western Christianity before the Great Schism with Finnish specifics) There is already something similar, for example Catholic Orthodox Church of France and Union of Scranton.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Orthodox_Church_of_France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Scranton
> I were taught to distrust all media.
This is the way to go, I guess.
> We don't see any other country do it.
This 'We' doesn't include me because I have a different experience, especially these days. And you don't need some US White House bots for that. (Why would you want those if you have Twitter users? Many of them hate Russia with all their heart and wish me killed with an atomic bomb.) US companies are doing plenty. Like, YouTube was showing Ukrainian war propaganda instead of ads in Russia. My mother told me first, she watches cooking and painting videos. (No Google's ads in Russia now.) In your country, they are probably inviting you to fight in Ukraine in YouTube ads. Have you seen those? I've seen it on Reddit in the 'volunteer's' subreddit. And in the US, the FBI uses YouTube and Facebook ads to recruit Russian embassy workers in the US, they are shown only inside and near the embassy. ImageShack, an image hosting website like Imgur, widely used on forums, replaces all the published images to badly made pro-Ukrainian propaganda images for Russian IP-addresses. Etc.
Gotta give you some credit btw, that was a really good explanation about the religion being a basis for science.
So do you think that the logical outcome would be science is eventually taking on as the new religion? If you think of, philosophy is already offering more superior forms of ethic, offering us values.
Or is it just a modern version of pharisaism? Should we ever let go of the thought of God - a possibility of greater power and mystery which we cannot explain? Imho, science is trying too hard, and the association with atheism is not necessarily needed one. Why to create such a conflict? Is it really, really needed? Or does it just make science threat to people who are not into science, and push us into eternal conflict?
(On a side not: One of the professor who taught me, told a story about a genius statistician, who sincerely thought herself to be an angel. This often comes to my mind when thinking of a stereotype of an ideal scientist: must be atheist, and skeptic towards everything spiritual. Is that really so?)
>This is a blind denial of science
>Therefore, it is easier for them to believe in their exclusivity as a species that is not subject to all these "techniques of Satan"
Think of the symbolism of vaccination. It represents a power coming from authorities, and not only that, but also blind faith. That being the case for the ones not being able to understand the logic of vaccination. Only after they've started doubting vaccine in emotional sense, their rational mind finds the reasoning. And they will not change their mind. Before that they've already made up their mind, that elite is not to be trusted. The most paranoid ones find science as authority which to be afraid of aswell. Logic doesn't matter, it's the symbolism and emotions related to it.
>when I organized all sorts of new age events
Have you read the Ra-material? What you think of it?
>But does a really confident man need to prove his masculinity to someone through clothes
Shouldn't. And tbh, I think we are heading to good direction, the hegemonic concept of masculinity is changing. Think of it. If you see a man proving his masculinity, doesn't it look rather cringe and "weak"? This might also have something to do with post materialism. Think of the Ukrainian who had all the amulets and rings. You prolly saw right thru him, right? Such measures don't work anymore.
What comes to certificate: when you think of education, in Finland atleast you almost have to "play it low" if you are in high position. Otherwise you are 100% deemed an asshole. (All tho this might have to do with something particular in our culture. We have saying: "modesty makes beautiful.") An example: We had one prime minister, who were handsome, intelligent, spoke many different languages fluently and were extra-confident. Even I who didn't agree with his politics, could see easily that he was literally born to be politic, and fitted for his job. And guess what? Finns fucking hated him. :D (Now that I say this, it actually makes me giggle inside. Like what the fuck?)
Carl Jung wrote a long time already, that for man to get wiser, he has to be in peace with his feminine side. The most silliest of men I know are imprisoned by their own view of masculinity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration_anxiety <- check the metaphorical part of that article.
Paperi-T's first album had themes about the conflict between the old & new view of masculinity, btw.
>teacher of natural sciences (his excuse being: I don't want to be an authority.)
Btw, some have viewed some of the songs of Pyhimys like he'd be telling to his listeners that he's going to kill himself. I'd be 0 surprised if he really did it.
There's more to his story. The irony in him quitting the studies not to become authority: he really succeeded in music. Not just in his personal career, but he has made it to the top of music industry (he is basically in a position to make anyone a star, if he chooses to.)
And there's more to it. He spent most of his career criticizing the music industry. Guess what's one often recurring theme in his music now? About self hatred for getting corrupted inside. :D:D
He's one of my personal heros. Cynical anon made it to the top of the industry, and he's still being brutally honest with himself and not forgeting his roots. That's something I admire the most in people. Even if you are an asshole, but you can admit it to yourself & others, that's somewhat respectable.
>is a big tragedy that many artists choose such a profession because they feel the world more strongly than others
I think it was Tupac who said that "I've been cursed with the insight of seeing how the world is supposed to be."
>It seems that initially he wanted to speak out, but no one heard him and he began to do more pop things, about all sorts of gangsta things that sell better and make it easier to gain popularity
Well here's the thing. Now, I get it, what I'm going to tell you might sound stupid to you (it's an actual tragedy.) Look at the picture. Idk if this famous meme abroads. This is the artist. He was first known as a meme. You know, the millenials who listened to gangsta rap and acted all though. He became the face for that generation, and all the naivety and wannabe-attitude related to that.
He is not the first one to die from the pressure of not being able to handle publicity (In Finland he is actually 2nd one to die as a consequence of being forced as a meme.) This guy was practically a child when he stepped to the publicity without asking for it, being the center of laughter.
Now think of how it must've been like as an artist, whom any of them feels pressure presenting their art. People already had viewed him like a "wannabe gangster" for decade already. I think that for him, the only way to be brutally honest was thru death. And not only that. This is only my interpretation, but was it also, that he wanted his art to be interpret seriously? Look, it worked. It really worked. He made his message very clear. One could even claim, that he is the personification of artist who is to be taken seriously.
Translation of the name of the song "Surullinen Klovni" = Sad Clown.
>You cannot be perfect like Jesus
I'm not claiming that with what I'm about to say, but what if Jesus is a symbolic figure for ultimate post-materialistic values? Think of it. To find the reasons to even die for. To act right even in the fear of losing one's life. Is there anything more precious than your own body, in a materialistic sense? Isn't this what his story is about? You making a choice, sacrificing your own ego in the most altruistic of ways. Maybe world is a test for your soul to be stronger than anything evil in the world.
>The theme of cosmonautics was very popular in the Soviet Union, so we are very fond of music that makes us think about space exploration. Many genres of foreign music were banned, but music like this was often played in Soviet children's films about space, so in any post-Soviet country such music causes special nostalgia
I actually just day or two ago watched a "bald and bankrupts" Youtube video of him being in Ukraine, Donbass. He drank champagne from old soviet glass in the front of some big mosaic painting about soviet astronauts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp3-NqM3YhA (Not Finnish)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cbyQWSetBU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG9CwgB0bGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1GDowJUkK4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-TB4Ma8ihg
My bet would be, that if the protests weren't violently suppressed even before they begin, there would already be peace. There's been news floating about up to 15k having been arrested already.
That being said, I understand that no one wants a bloody revolution in Russia.
Has Russia confirmed that? I thought they are not telling the information about that.
NATO has estimated the Russian casualties to be over 40k - but that's not only the dead, but also the wounded, missing & prisoners. This might have something to do with the possible false flag, if the marshal law cannot be justified in any other way.
Idk if I am religious one. Not in the sense of participating in practices of any institutional religion. And my knowledge about such themes aren't that deep, so I think I'd better not comment. You wanna elaborate your view?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima
You know about this? You might want to read about it. It's either the biggest mass psychosis ever to be documented, or then..
>"The controversial events at Fátima gained fame due partly to elements of the secrets, prophecy and eschatological revelations allegedly related to the Second World War and possibly more global wars in the future, particularly the Virgin's request for the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary."
>"If her requests were heeded, Russia would be converted, and there would be peace; if not, Russia would spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The vision culminated with a promise that in the end, "the Immaculate Heart would triumph. The Holy Father would consecrate Russia to Mary, and a period of peace would be granted to the world."
> Has Russia confirmed that? I thought they are not telling the information about that.
Russia gave only one number, 498 casualties and it was three weeks ago. After that they keep silence.
I get data from "Генерал СВР" (telegram and youtube channel), I have been reading it for more than 5 months and it's predictions keeps confirming. Sometimes they publish some data that become available after 1-2 days.
I think it's quite close.
Also, 18 thousands was several days ago. Now it's almost 20 thousands dead :)
wounded at least as twice.
I hope you don't get offended by what I'm to say, but I'll try to explain you the pov of western media.
Imagine this being your media feed: Russia attacks (2014), Russia is going to attack again, Russia attacks (2022), Russian soldiers kills civilians, Russian soldiers rape civilians, Russian soldiers rape more civilians and after the rape they murder the civilians, pictures & videos about dead bodies & cities turned into dust..
Meanwhile Russian leaders & media: "There's no Russian soldiers in Ukraine" (2014), "There's no war" (2022), "Here are the friendly Russian soldiers feeding the civilians" , "No cities are bombed, Ukrainians are lying about that", "We have nukes btw"
Mean while the Kreml's trolls: "8 years of Russian genocide, Nazis, Jews, Ukrainians lying about everything, and btw the vaccines are lethal poison"
How can you have a healthy dialogue from this basis?
Imho, if Putin just told the truth about his agenda, no matter how cruel it was, it would've prolly gathered more support in west. Why? Yes, he would be still be judged as an asshole, but now it's worse: he's viewed as hypocritical lying asshole. And tbh even Russian media cannot be blamed for all that, they have impossible PR task in their hands.
So what do you expect from western media & social media platforms? To sympathize with the Putin's regime and his agenda? At this point it's impossible. And it's not just about media anymore. The people sincerely want to show support to Ukraine.
>wish me killed with an atomic bomb
In reality, I doubt no one is interested to attack Russia, as it means probably the destruction of whole planet. It just used as a means for your propaganda to make you afraid, and for Putin to justify it's own geopolitical agenda.
This being said, what comes to russophobia rising it's head, people have really hard time understanding why Ruski's cant stop Putin. This also having to do with the fear, that it just might be west in the end, who has to do it.
>they are probably inviting you to fight in Ukraine in YouTube ads
No such things are vouched in Finnish mainstream media. Latest news we got about volunteers, was that Ukrainians are only taking ones with training & experience, and they had turned couple of Finns back from the Ukraine. Cannot comment for Youtube adds since I've adblocked the shit out of them.
Most of the war related mainstream media feed is about suffering civilians, showing the humanitarian side of the conflict.
What comes to Reddit volunteers, it's pure meme level stuff. I mean, sure, I respect anyone who's willing to sacrifice their lives. More power to them. But then again, they're found bit cringe, and I'm not sure if they do more good or harming the reputation of volunteers for ever. But hey, it's a first war in Europe in the time of social media, what else to expect?
The Kadyrov Chechens have kinda similar reputation btw, some find them to be social media warriors in Russia's side.
In last thread we talked with another Ruski anon about this could be just what the Putin needs. To look weak and get pwned hard in the beginning. I hope it's not true, because it brings up questions about much bigger plan. (Hell, if you have foil hat next to you, you can even think if co-vid was a coincidence after all.)
We've seen Russian soldiers with Mosin Nagants, and WW2 helmets. Some of the soldiers look like gopniks (with due all respect.) Could it just be, that he is basically emptying all the old warehouses to front lines?
Another theory being, that army has been so corrupted, that the money which was supposed to buy more weaponry, has drained down the sink.
> Meanwhile Russian leaders & media ...
I see. So, you've never looked at Russian news. (I find it interesting that I could read Western news even if I didn't speak English. Besides BBC, DW, RFEL, and others, we have Russian media that translate foreign articles. Not a thing in Finland, I guess.)
> So what do you expect from western media & social media platforms?
I expect from them exactly what they are doing because I know they are neither independent nor honest.
> a means for your propaganda to make you afraid
Are American Twitter users, who want me dead, 'Russian propagandists'? As I said, it's a user-generated content from Twitter. I open Twitter and I read this. I don't have a Twitter account because it's pointless to respond to these people. (Also, I find this https://nitter.net/MarketRebels/status/1500614109703938051 kind of discussions fascinating.)
Don't worry, some Western clichés can't offend me, I've read them, and I've read a lot worse than them. I wouldn't bear a weapon in any other circumstances, but I reconciled to the idea of having to defend my home with a weapon if it comes to that.
Oh, so you finally find someone naive enough to listen to you ? Should i congratulate you ?
Cool story, man. Also
>Idk why I brought this up, maybe to remind that not all humanity is lost even in the middle of war
Amen. Good people on both sides will recognise each other and some day the world will be a better place because of them.
And thanks for your video. I've read a lot about the Winter War and Finland in WWII, but there are always more stories to be told.
I hope that all this shitty events won't affect you or any of your friends and loved ones. Peace, m8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKtIeeCM_ZI
> Ukrainian civilians around 40 thousands
According to OHCHR's report on civilian casualties, 311 killed and 857 wounded in Donbass (since February 24), 724 killed and 793 wounded in Ukraine. https://www.ohchr.org/ru/press-releases/2022/03/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-march-2022 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-march-2022
> Has Russia confirmed that? I thought they are not telling the information about that.
Russian MOD: 1351 dead and 3825 wounded. Ukrainians claim it's 16 100. https://www.rbc.ru/politics/25/03/2022/623dc3869a79477067801a17
I just had to fix this for you lel
>You are prolly talking about such cults?
No. There are a lot of new-maded cults. They are often build on semi-Vedic principles with dreams about "ancient Rus which was destroyed by evil Christians/Communists/etc".
I look sceptically on these modern dreams. It`s not a paradise or even easy life. It means hard labour every day, decrease in cultural level, blaming intellectual activities and so on. But you are right - if the nukes will be apllied, this is the only way.
>a treasure in the end of the rainbow
No treasure in the end. The narrative is - you will suffer, but your country is again empire which sets on fear all the world. It just a fairy tail which plays on national proud and so on.
>offer more routes for Ruskis
That is the huge difference in the mindsets - average Russian may help you if he knows you well and if he firmly decide that you suffer badly. I mean our communities are much more closed and people prefer to help others if they are familiar well.
Btw, it`s a good news. There should be a links to Western informational space even our rulers will decide to shut down the internet. Official who are responsible for censorship are extremely conservative, they say - there is only rubbish on your Youtube, shut it down.
A funny moment is about censorship now. For instance, word "suicide" is the red rag for Roskomnadzor (RKN is often used); if I would like to write that I`m going to kill myself then I should write smth like I`m going to RKN.
>it would be so easy to wish for the regime to do the job, or the next leader
When I reflected about it, I had came to the conclusion that good time is already missed. Many children of politicians got their high posts, businesses, media and so on. The system went to its origins that were in Russian Empire more than 100 years ago - with new nobles, semi-inheritable posts and so on. Such a system is very stable and the only possible way to crush it down - just to wait about 50-70 years when elite will get completely rotten and unprofessional.
>with the people's will. Not the leader's
Here the situation is vise versa: people for the regime, not regime for people. When I spoke with people who lived in both Russia and Western countries, they all as one repeated this thought.
>How can you get out of that situation, without help from outside?
When I read this, I remembered an episoge from Solzhenitsin`s "GULAG archipelago". Unfairy enprisoned and repressed people when they got awared about US nukes dreamed that US will decide to nuke SU to kill the terrible tyrant and will set them free. This is just another archetype here - "the West will help us". And the history shows that is doesn`t work as you mentioned. But it works in completely other way.
>west easily recognizes that as the real power
West usually recognizes such manifestation if they are pro-Western and starts to worrying about rally`s participants as they were smth like freedom fighters. Sure, many of people who participated in such rallies can be assured about democracy and so on. But with this, another well-trained and well-organized more radical forces start to act. Look, do you really think that just ordinary people in Ukraine in 2013-14 could act as an excellently organized force with good coordination and communication across the whole country? How it could be that they have so elaborated political requirements and political program? It is incredibly hard to organize so many people and to got their trust so rapidly and in such professional way.
The recent example is the events in Kazakhstan during January. Initially, people started to strike at the Western regions of the state, then, another regions joined to them. They did not have political or even elaborated economical requirements, they just wanted to push back gas prices. They really were peaceful. And officials agreed with them, moreover, they gave them more they wanted. And what happened then? From nowhere, another force has aroused - radicals with political and economical requirements, very agressive and with elaborated plan how to paralise the power across the whole state. Just think - how it is possible that ordinary people started to fight even with marines on their own base? Why they were well-armed? And what was the Western reaction? Please, don`t touch them, they are just peaceful citizens with more than shy words, just deal with them, you bloodthirstly undemocratic regime. With this, across messengers and social networks a political program has started to spread. Briefly, the program was about separatism, Russian language ban, polygyny allowance in Muslim style and so on. Yes, sure, after this, I can trust the Western propaganda about "democratic choice" and "spontaneous Maidan".
>when democracy has to be more authoritarian
It is a bad way, you know? Initially, you agree with banning "bad" opinions from media. Then, you agree that it`s good idea to fight against political forces that do not agree with the "main line". Then, you blame all the persons who spoke "bad" things. Then you face another totalitaristic regime.
Just reflect about this - both sides of this global conflict are in their informational bubbles and both of them see completely different reality. So, this is a staring point of such informational totalitarism.
>for leader, or media: an one lie, and if you get caught, you lose trust
For instance, Psaki said that biological warlabs over Ukraine is Russian propaganda, then, Nuland says that they are trying to prevent these labs to be captured by the Russia`s military. The same was with Baiden`s son`s laptop - initially it was said that this is propaganda, but then, this information was officially approved. The same was with vaccination - both our and Western officials assured us that vaccination is stable shield against covid, then, there were many academical papers that has shown that the shots do not prevent from contamination if the contacts are close. Then, I saw the analysis how frequently Trump lied in his twits. So, there are a lot of similar examples.
This is another difference between Russians and westerners. We know that leaders may lie, that the media lie, that every official again may lie; this means that you can not trust them at all and it`s very bad idea to believe that any official of any state is honest person. That`s why media here are oftenly considered as just another instrument of political fights.
Therefore, politicians are often considered here as
deceitful and hypocritical bastards who speak smth only due to his own interests. People here do not have any illusions about them, both they are our politicians or aren`t.
I highlight this thesis - here westerns are often considered as dummies caz they trust their media; here the thought that one may fully trust any media is insane. So, you may find Russians very cynical as they do not believe media, politicians, opinion leaders and so on. Another video with lying officials and blood bath with civilians do not shock, this is just another shit that always happens.
>The invasion. Video related.
As you see arguments in this thread, the same was with Donbass people and some of Western media spoke briefly about this. Similarly, they did not shout when Poroshenko has started to fight with Russian language, they started to cry about Zelensky`s law about "native nations" as Hungarians were oppressed. The problem was solved - Hungarians were considered as "native nation" and then Western media started to keep silence. What the fuck happened? Russians in Ukraine (or, for instance, in Baltic states) are not minorities? Or it is democratic to start banning Russian language?
That`s why Western concepts are considered here as double standards. And when it is required to start informational campaign against Russia, the media instantly start to show all they want.
So, the media image of Ukraine as democracy is considered here as fairy tail for West`s public opinion as they can believe this narrative.
And now, there are many videos about Ukraine forces shooting down civils, explaining children how to be a "partisans", placing their artillery near schools and so on.
>Russia’s insistence that it is not a party to the conflict
Ofc, it is bullshit - at least, weapons and military instructors. The same was from the other side - Western military and economical aid. And sanctions, ofc. This is the reason to consider Western states as hostile now.
Btw, Russia insisted on re-integration these regions back to Ukraine.
>it's their land
Sure. And there are a lot of Russians and Russian speakers there who being considered as a treat for the Ukranian regime. Isn`t this a vile violation of any democratic norms and rules - to treat these people? Btw, it was considered as very negative not due to democratial principles were fucked up, but due to it was shocking - close neigbour gone very hostile and started to attack Russians themselves. Just imagine - what if, for instance, Austria will start to oppress Germans who lives there for their nationality and language and then start to shout across the media that they should go home or they mist be killed? EU will fuck up them with savage santions. So, why Russians should see at such idiots and keep calm?
>Revolutions can't after all be set up, without the will of majority.
There is one point missed (if we consider a situation while a revolution goes from down) - there should be well-organized power to lead the process.
>I wonder what went wrong
I see one of the reasons is the US` foreign policy - Iraq, for instance. Another point is that Russia could not agree to lose its military independence if it was incorporated into NATO.
>It's the basis
This is exactly what I mean - this is just another basis relying on another fundamental ideology and values. You may reflect what will happen without it - political life will continue, people will not stip to discuss political questions. I mean that society will be based on another principles that are more suitable for nation`s midset. West has its own long traditions of democracy while other states have completely other political ways. That`s why attempts to promote democracy across the globe is considered as harmfull; why should smb lose its traditions and national experience and to set a democratic regime and western values? They have their own. Well, one may argue that they are better for people and economy and it may be right. But national mentalities are completely different, how can we speak about common human values and common human rights? This is the Western political traditions, ok, it works well, across the West. Just imagine - Chinese or Northern Korean people or even Russians will blame western societies for they do not have smb like emperor or tsar who organize people as united force and have free media which make societies more scattered? And for this reason they will be named as unprogressive, politically unstable or corrupted or oppressed by brainwashing machine.
>You get the idea? Truly free media cannot be affected by anyone
Yes, I got it, thx. But I do not fully believe in that. There will be some sort of control on them from non-state forces and they will act for one`s clear interests. However, it works well giving all the forces a place to show their own opinions.
Btw, I recognize how useful such medias are - they can affect politicians and force them to act in the way that people found good. I easily admit that elite must be in some kind of fear of people to better control them, but only to some extent. The advantage of Russian system is that there is no need to listen to enraged mass who shout about smth they do not have any chance to understand deeply. Look, I saw many examples how ordinary people are trying to organize smth important for them (community services or how to better organize centralized water supply of near two thousand garden areas) and it was awful - just yelling and treats and absolute absence of any wish to be more constructive. I did not see in such cases any reasonable argument to talk with them at all, just to say I was treated for many times in such situations; so, the decisions therefore are often made by superiors or by small group of person who care about and have more experience and skills.
Just look at Yeltzin`s election campaign in 1996 - by using huge scale brainwashing techniques he won. It is not hard to manipulate people via media and social networks, so, even a person without any political background can win, as Zelenskiy did.
Some of examples of non-state media:
https://novayagazeta.ru/
https://www.svoboda.org/
http://katyusha.org/
>the doom of Russia
Yep, I agree with that. The confrontation with West will continue, any sign of democracy here will shade and reincarnation of SU will arouse.
But the situation is worse than earlier. It seems like we will see scattered world with West opposing Russia and China with its satellites.
I wasn't talking about personal view. I was talking about how things might look to westerners from pov of media. And as I said, it's not just about the media, it's the speeches of the Russian leaders, what don't add up to reality. It might seem normal to you, but we aren't used to such contrast between reality and media.
>Are American Twitter users, who want me dead, 'Russian propagandists'?
Can't talk for Americans. But in Finland's case: Yes, they can be, and that's exactly what they are doing. That's what I've been trying to tell you. And it's worse than just Kreml's trolls. It's systematical attempt to make us look like we'd hate Russians, which doesn't add up to reality. It's all staged, not for our, but for your eyes.
https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/308e263c-5f30-40c1-9474-8d2fedec5adf
I wouldn't rely on neither of the sources (UA or RUS). Both sides have a reason to spread war propaganda atm.
I didn't claim that there's 40k civilian deaths. I said that NATO has estimated the Russian soldier casualties to be 40k (killed, injured, missing & imprisoned.) I know, NATO might not sound exactly the most objective as a source, and I take it with grain of salt also. But afaik it's the only external source, which is basing it's estimation on information from both sides.
https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-23/card/russia-lost-up-to-40-000-troops-in-ukraine-nato-estimates-xyZjWxinMDHzdeRZvAeD
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-march-2022
>a total of 977 killed (196 men, 144 women, 12 girls, and 27 boys, as well as 42 children and 556 adults whose sex is yet unknown)
>a total of 1,594 injured (174 men, 136 women, 24 girls, and 20 boys, as well as 64 children and 1,176 adults whose sex is yet unknown)
And it's not like this would matter otherwise in the context of the thread, but you might want to consider that if you see a false flag soon. If Russian army is failing, will it take the beating, or will it use weapons of mass destruction - and how can it justify that, if the story is, that they are doing okay? This also comes to protecting Russian civilians, as if the false flag is to occur, it might be prevented with prebunking it.
It is obvious that invasion to Finland will force NATO to rapidly responce, so, this means WWIII with nuclear strikes and so on. One may blame Putin to be a dictator or tyrant, but his isn`t fool or mad man. Currently, mainly only western states consider the situation as agression due to Russia is "bad". Many states at least neutral and see these events as Russian reaction on NATO treat. To invade Finland means to become an obvious agressor with tiny reason for it.
Then, it is possible to set pro-Russian regime on Ukraine or tear it apart by a number of People`s Republics. And it may worl pretty well due to many pro-Russian forces in the Ukraine.
In contrast to this possibility, there will be a desperate resistance of Finns if such the situation will occur. So, what is the reason to invade Finland? Just to lose any support across the globe and to face six millions extremely motivated partisans. There is no way.
Yes, some of Wagner`s PMC staff have the tatoos with Nazi symbols.
The main difference I see here - Ukraine widely support this on official level with suitable ideology about "kill the Moskals". Ukraine has gone to be really nationalistic state and this did not happen here.
I'm not going to believe the whole Twitter is 'Kremlin bots' who lure me into believing everyone hates Russia. I'll stick to the more probable theory: they are real Americans who aren't fond of Russians, and some of them would be glad to see a dozen of or dozens of millions of people thousands of miles away killed for freedom and justice. It's fine because they'll soon forget about Russia and discuss another hot topic instead.
> Kyse ei olekaan totuudesta, vaan fasistisen johtajan tavasta johtaa venäläisiä kolmella asialla: pelolla, absoluuttisella mediakontrollilla ja emävalheilla. Jälkimmäisillä osa kansasta pystytään kiihottamaan oikeudettomiin hyökkäyssotiin Venäjän naapurimaita vastaan.
Finland is in geography books, obviously, Nokia and Sven are Finnish, and I've heard people drive from Saint Petersburg to Finland for shopping. The point is, I don't hear about Finland a lot. I think the author of the article is exaggerating.
> I didn't claim that there's 40k civilian deaths.
I know. I cited the guy whom you respond to.
> I said that NATO has estimated the Russian soldier casualties to be 40k
I've read that too. They believe it's between 7000 and 15 000 dead (Russian MOD says 1351, Ukrainian MOD says 16 100, and their figure is in between), and multiply it by four because 1 to 3 is the usual dead-to-wounded ratio.
> or will it use weapons of mass destruction
Against what? Ukraine? Not possible. And fortunately, they won't fail.
>To put into more simpler way: do you find there exist some sort of battle in art, that could be viewed as battling the mainstream system, and uniting it's people under same constructive ideology? You know, some times art is the trendsetter, even more ahead of it's time than science. Are Ruski artists free to show the inner conflicts of society, and between people & other nations?
Ofc, just like our entire society, Russian art is very diverse. And in the context of politics, you can try to break it down into a large group of pop culture, oppositional and "patriotic" (pro-Putin). Part of pop culture is all sorts of meaningless things, like new wave rap, which sings about money, drugs and cars. Or pop groups that sing about primitive love (the relationship between a woman and a man) and other garbage. Or a movie about romance or youth comedies. In fact, most people who do this also hate Putin, but the existing system gives them a lot of money, so while everything was fine with the economy, they were silent, or could express their point of view only in personal conversations. It is necessary to understand what I have already said. Only the same groups of abnormal people can sincerely believe in Putin. And pop artists have a lot of money, travel a lot, enjoy all the benefits of Western culture and did not openly oppose Putin only because this regime allowed them to have a lot of money through concerts or advertising. Some popular comedians could make fun of society's problems a lot, like corrupt police or officials. But the topic of Putin was taboo for them.
Patriotic art is the funniest thing. Because we understand very well that all this is stealing from the budget and always looks like cuts from North Korean television. We have been watching all this for 70 years in the Soviet Union and are well aware of how inefficient and stupid it looks. And now, when the creation of this art takes place openly for money, it looks even sillier: "Look at a rich artist who will tell you for money how you, poor people, should love the motherland."And as I said above, talented people have not wanted to get dirty in this for a long time, because they understand that the people will not forgive them for this and they will lose the remnants of authority.
By the way, about the guy who told about the Finnish war with Ville - Sergey Shnurov. Here he is just a good example. He was a punk rocker, everyone loved his band's songs. And he is a very good poet and a really talented person. He was not just a popular person, but a very bright phenomenon, a person who symbolized the Russian soul in its most festive manifestation. He was considered one of the main voices of the generation, who could potentially be considered a figure equal to Viktor Tsoi. When political problems began in the country a few years ago, everyone hoped that he, as a person who would definitely not go to prison for his opinion, would be able to openly tell the truth. But he just chose the opportunity to continue receiving big money from the budget and not conflict with the authorities. He began singing comic songs ridiculing the opposition and headed a TV channel that is part of Putin's propaganda. Well, that is, you can imagine that some young rapper, the son of a rich dad, will say because of stupidity that he likes Putin. Or a singer about love, who became popular back in the Soviet Union, can sing at a concert in honor of Putin, because he lives all his life in the format of loyalty to any regime and is comfortable with any regime. But Cords are a completely different story. Everyone knows, looking at his songs, that this is a man who cannot fail to understand the values of freedom, cannot fail to understand the problems of ordinary people. And it was the display of this Russian sincerity that gave him such popularity. And the degree of disappointment from his such behavior is now comparable to betrayal during the war and the shock that such a person can get so dirty. He had a lot of money and a lot of respect, but he will go down in history as a disgraced clown.
On the video with the portrait of Putin that you gave, just the reaction of ordinary people. The girl who prays for Putin just mocks this situation. Just like I told you about the attitude to patriotic propaganda. Looking at how it is done, it seems to us that this is how the government wants to see our reaction to it. She portrays those schizophrenics who sincerely believe in the sanctity of Putin. But there are, as I said, a minority. It's funny when the president is presented to you as an invincible warrior who sacrifices himself to save the country. But we can't just say that they are stupid degenerates, because you can go to jail for it, but we can laugh about it. And then Putin will punish not ordinary people, but those who so stupidly make propaganda for him.
As for the opposition and protest art, it is very interesting. The fact is that we cannot express our discontent directly through art. So we have to hide it behind symbols and humor. This greatly develops culture and will also give a lot of useful things to world art. Like, for example, the films of Sasha Baron Cohen. Did you know that he took this format from Iranian pseudo-documentaries of the 70s? That's what I was talking about.
Sometimes the main plot is not important, but the circumstances and reasons for the actions of the heroes are important, which can tell a lot about the political and social situation in the country. This applies to everything - movies, music, books, YouTube videos. And people understand that only in such art they can get, albeit hidden, but the truth, so such art is more popular and has more influence. This may not be noticeable in the West, because a lot of money is not spent on promoting such things. People themselves discuss it everywhere and such art usually has a larger audience, because even people who support the authorities understand that only there they can see the real opinion of people and attitude to the situation. That is, people are more likely to go to a film by some director who openly talks about problems in an interview, because they understand that they will see situations familiar and close to everyone in the film, and not an embellished life. For the same reason, more people will listen to a musician who is not afraid to tell the truth or watch an interview with an opposition politician.
Since these problems of society in their work are hidden behind symbols or an artistic form, politicians cannot simply shut their mouths. The government may informally prohibit the showing of commercials with these people or prohibit interviewing them in public media. But this does not affect their art in any way. Private and Western brands still understand that cooperation with them is more profitable for sales, because people believe them more.
>A hypothetical question. What if the Russian army gets beaten and humiliated in Ukraine, like the Alexander Nevzorov suggested? Do you think it could really launch a revolution, if it makes the state look weak?
Of course not. As I have already said, modern wars are waged in the media space. And since our state is able to restrict the media for the majority of the population, they will simply tell us that we have fulfilled all the goals and left on our own. You must understand that the very fact of the war with Ukraine is already a political defeat that almost every Russian person feels. We understand that this is one nation with us with a common history and even having a different government and state border, we felt our connection constantly. We speak the same language. Almost every Russian has family members living in Ukraine. Everyone at work has a Ukrainian colleague. Many pop stars, artists and athletes who are popular with us are Ukrainians. It's about as if your government came to your neighbors' house and burned it down along with your school friend and his parents for voting for another political party. And then it came to you and proudly reported that it saved you from their bad influence.
And despite this, as you can see, there are no protests at the moment. Only other armed violent people can resist an armed violent government. In general, any revolutions are won only when the significant part of the army refuses to defend the government. It also happened, for example, on the Maidan, when nationalist battalions with weapons stood up against the old regime and the police refused to shoot at them, because they were afraid to die senselessly themselves and did not want to shoot at a crowd of civilians.
Actually, we already have a couple of cases when individual groups of soldiers refused to go to Ukraine and now everyone is waiting for the trials of these people to take place. This gives some hope. But we must understand, as I said, if there is a successful protest in Russia, it will mean even greater problems and sacrifices both in our country and around the world. This will simply accelerate the possible transition to democracy in our country, but until we reach it, we and you are waiting for years of economic problems. Even now you can see how fuel and food are getting more expensive. But Russia still supplies its resources abroad. Imagine what would happen if these supplies stopped completely.
>Like in west, one could argue, that all art is "leftist", because it's meant to criticize often the mainstream right-wing system
By the way, this is the reason why many oppositionists in Russia do not feel very good about the leftist orientation of Western society and the methods of Western propaganda. We know all these techniques too well and are upset that in the West people make the same mistakes that led to the collapse of another empire - the Soviet Union. There are many opinions that Biden, with his rhetoric of tolerance and apologies, which helped him take the votes of poor black people in America to his side, did no less for this war than Putin. Especially when he left Afghanistan so shamefully, without achieving any goals there and leaving the Afghans to suffer under the rule of the Taliban. I think at that moment, Putin finally realized that he could do whatever he wanted in Ukraine and America, as the guarantor of world security, would not openly oppose this (meaning with weapons, as it is now).
>I wouldn't necessarily call the Finnish music as light, all in all. It can be that as the spring is setting in, my mind is wondering to more smoother side, and it shows up in the music I tend to listen atm. Anyways, I think the most expressed state of mind & emotion is melancholy in our music scene (as it has a special place in our culture.) Sometimes you can hear the artists almost celebrating the melancholy, turning it into.. umm.. joy almost, or a meaningfulness? I can feel this in Kino's songs also.
We know that feel. And I'll tell u about one great singer of real russian soul in of next message. But now another one not to serious, but intersting group that leaves big legacy in out modren culture.
"The King and the Fool" singed punk rock. Their songs all about dark and creepy fairytales. Not russian traditon fairitayls, more like european tradition.
Like here, for example . This song is about drunken woodcutter who found a dead man and took his boots. At home, he started showing off his new boots to his sister, and she was scared of such a find. Then he heard a voice on the street: "Open the door, I've come to take what you stole from me." The woodcutter ran out with an axe into the street, but found no one there, and when he returned home, he saw his dead sister in these boots.
And all this is sung in a punk manner with a mockery of death and fear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3sxwY0YADc
It seems that a mixture of fairy tales and punk rock is something incompatible. But they managed to combine it incredibly harmoniously and it seems that this is the only way it should be. Perhaps the fact is that they appeared in the 90s. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, when children saw how many problems politics brings to ordinary people, they did not want to touch this topic. Unlike in the West, where punks announce their protest through text, in the 90s it was more expressed through clothes and style of music. Even rap in the 90s was out of politics. With regard to the apolitical nature of that generation, I will probably tell you something else, because I have experienced it myself.
Anyway, "King and fool" did a great show and even if you don't like punk rock, they have a pretty melodic sound.
Despite the image of punks who drink a lot and sleep in a puddle of their own vomit, in ordinary life the soloists were quite intelligent and adequate people. Unfortunately, the main soloist of the band died about 10 years ago. It is also interesting that it used to be believed that only drunk marginal youth listen to this group. But now it's a modern classic, listening and understanding which is considered even fashionable. Partly because the students who drank at their concerts grew up and went to serious work. Partly because seeing the modern pop culture of social networks, we begin to overestimate past experience and look for value not only in appearance, but also in artistic value and uniqueness.
Here's few other good tracks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vKqarCMgU8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeWl-SHpmus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj6aM9ljdQU
>There has been happened alot of shit in the name of religions, and still is
Do not comfort yourself with the illusion of the superiority of modern thinking, my friend. If we take as a basis that religion was an indisputable scientific knowledge in ancient times, then it can easily justify the murders of other nations. After all, science is the rules of existence in society for us. If someone does not want to be vaccinated, we believe that they harm a large number of people and should be isolated from society in any way. And if he breaking that rules and specifically visits public places to infect other people, we may agree to his murder, since we understand that by his behavior he unknowingly kills other people.
It's the same with religion. If someone does not want to comply with your ideas about the correct and healthy existence of society, then you can calmly watch your army kill him, justifying it with benefits for your society (which is of course more educated and more valuable for the future than a society with another "wrong" religion).
The Communists also explained their ideology with a large number of "scientific" theories and studies. In the USSR, there was even a subject at the university "scientific communism", on which diplomas and scientific papers were written.
During the time of fascism in Germany there were universities studying the superiority of race. And Dr. Mengele conducted cruel experiments in concentration camps, trying to bring the scientific basis under the racial theory. And the soldiers who killed hundreds of thousands of Slavic children (like me or other anons on this board) were sure that they were killing wild animals. These were the same Germans who at the same time discovered the theory of relativity, introduced new production technologies and made many discoveries in the field of space exploration and nuclear energy, which later helped the Soviet Union. Yes, it was just the grandfathers of today's Germans.
Capitalism also, as you know, justifies its correctness with a large number of economic works that are taught at universities.
And I can easily imagine that in 300 years people will study the intelligence reports of the United States, Russia and the Soviet Union with horror and be horrified:"How could these people kill others in such numbers just for the sake of resources, despite the fact that they did not know even 1% about the surrounding world and space that we know?"
And if we imagine the difference in the population of the planet in different periods, then we can confidently say that over the past 300 years of "non-religious" wars and revolutions, we have killed more people for them than were killed in the entire history of mankind "in the name of God."
>Do you think this is the case?
In fact, this is a very big topic for discussion. I can recommend this article to you:
https://novayagazeta.ru/articles/2021/06/05/pobeg-iz-ukhania
it is in Russian, but it is written in a rather academic language, so I think that the meaning will not be lost in translation. There are links to all English-language sources. I am sure that it will be very interesting for you to read the information that is being told there.
And this is not Putin's propaganda. The editor-in-chief of this media received the Nobel Prize last year for his work. And the journalist herself, who wrote this material, was forced to move to Israel, hiding from our state, as pro-Putin activists attacked her several times and threatened her parents.
By the way, she has some interesting articles about global warming. I saw that you are concerned about this topic. It is possible that the opinion there may not exactly coincide with yours, but she always tries to justify her conclusions in a scientific way and such an expansion of knowledge is useful for any person.
>closest thing of eternal life people can have, is to transfer their consciousness to computer
In fact, the world around us is a huge supercomputer that already stores information about everything that lives and once lived in our world. Scientists have long known that black holes, absorbing material objects, accelerate them to such a speed that they are converted into energy. Actually, nuclear power is based on this, and that's why we were all so worried when the large hadron collider was launched - we were creating a black hole on our planet. But Stephen Hawking, back in the 80s, was able to prove in theory that at certain moments such an amount of energy accumulates inside a black hole that it pushes it back out, converting it back into matter. That is, what previously seemed to us the imminent death of a material object is actually a reversible process to some extent, and for example, we could shove a person into a black hole, turning him into a clot of energy, and then return to his original state. Now it is difficult to justify it from a scientific point of view, but in the future I am sure we will be able to control this process. But this is a slightly different topic, by the way, which just shows another side of immortality. As for the death of our experience, memory and information about us, I have already explained that our habits and behavior were formed throughout evolution and those habits that were useful have remained with us until now. We can say that in this way, we still keep the most valuable information that our ancestors had. And every time you make some kind of unconscious reaction to external influences, you embody the immortality of our ancestors in real modern life. Pretty funny, isn't it?
>The only last ones to stand in the way are authoritarian leaders. That's been the case for long.
In fact, this is in some sense absolutely true. But the problem is that these people live in the trap of their own sense of power. I'm talking about Western leaders. Not in the sense that there is some kind of closed secret society. And the fact is that in fact their actions and thoughts are much more influenced by the consciousness of a huge number of people they represent, their classical good education, which in terms of politics and economics is based on old dogmas. At the beginning of the post, I tried to explain why I consider this science and their rather stupid and destructive in the context of the future development of terminology and the already existing consequences for ordinary people. From the point of view of the knowledge available today, everything looks quite logical and since Western society leads to material prosperity, it seems that at the moment we don't know anything smarter anyway and we need to take capitalist logic as the basis of our life. But damn it, if all this in the end cannot prevent all these victims that we have now, then how can we talk about the correctness of this policy.
My point is that we have the opportunity to reason this way and look at it from the outside as observers and researchers. But these politicians have to go out to a large audience and talk with serious faces about the absolute correctness of this approach, about its infallibility. And they can no longer refuse, because a lot of people voted for them. But these politicians know much more real information than we can assume about the victims and ways of influencing the population, but they cannot change anything and are forced to simply behave most rationally. Imagine how unfree they feel, while having enormous power. Of course, over time, human thinking adjusts and they block negative emotions with different types of drugs, including complacency (living in illusions). In fact, another manifestation of the Stockholm syndrome. And a hostage with such a syndrome is also sure that he is free and has a certain power over his abductor.
Putin looks more crazy simply because he lives depending on the people who hold more violent views. But technically, he is the same doll on the virtual hand of a huge mass of people, which he thinks he should influence. I hope I have explained approximately clearly what I mean
And as for secret societies in the context of conspiracy theories. Try to walk through the houses of your neighborhood and collect money from everyone for some useful thing. Like new lighting or extra security. Depends on what the problem is in your place right now
In fact, you will hear a large number of refusals for various reasons. Because people still have individual interests and their own point of view. And for people who have power, personal interests a priori prevail over the interests of the group. To build a system of people on the scale of all the planets or at least the country so that it does not become known to the entire population. Not at this stage of the development of human thinking. There is a saying: "In a cartel, the one who breaks it first gets the most."
>Way to unite, and way to secure the planet
Look, bro. We already live in a connected world. Today I was doing my job communicating with people from 4 countries - Russia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan and Georgia. Then I received an order from China, which I made online. And now I spend my free time communicating with a person from Finland. What I did today during the day, a person 100 years ago would have spent at least a month traveling and waiting for letters. And the product that I make in the virtual space has material value and benefits for people.
The problem of why we still have borders is the same as ours within the same country. And you got it right. There are still people with outdated views, but we can't just deny their opinions or eliminate them just because they don't understand the economic efficiency of our way of life. A quick rejection of the old rules will lead to even more victims and conflicts. Therefore, we can only wait, trying to survive in the current world, and try to explain to others the correctness of this approach.
In a sense, what we have now in Ukraine is another attempt by society to rethink state borders and their necessity. People through such mistakes will come to understand that human life is not worth dying in the name of a piece of land. My ancestors and my descendants would rather me lived on two square meters with the Internet and a laptop than give my life fighting for a piece of land in the name of the political ambitions of my or someone else's president.
bump
>That doesn't sound too good. More like a sick ideology
But, isn't indeed based and redpilled?
Hey, Ruskis!
Having it busy atm. I'll be answering ASAP, when I have time to sit on PC.
Sorry for making you wait.
-OP
Having it busy atm. I'll be answering ASAP, when I have time to sit on PC.
Sorry for making you wait.
-OP
Тот случай, когда 1% промытых зумеров способен развалить страну.
Хорошо, что сейчас полиционеры имеют больше полномочий для щемления неокрепших умов, чем это было на закате СССР. Это внушает уверенность в завтрашнем дне.
Sorry for the delay!
>It`s not a paradise or even easy life. It means hard labour every day, decrease in cultural level, blaming intellectual activities and so on
Oh yeah, such as amish-culture? Now I get it better.
But in my utopia, there wouldn't be such silliness. No ideology to hold it together, except for the recognition that we don't need no tech & all the material shit in our lives.
Inb4: We will create this scifi hi-tech world, where we have cool stuff, but something important is lost, and we don't even remember what it was.
>The narrative is - you will suffer, but your country is again empire which sets on fear all the world
You recognized this as dangerous. Do you think that most find the narrative as negative?
From western pov, it seems like Russian leaders tell people these tales, so people wouldn't fuck them up. I've said this before already, but let me repeat: It is unbelievable, that you still have so much poorness. If Ruski's had taxated the natural resources and spread the incomes fairly, you'd be prolly one of the richest peoples (per GDP per capita.)
Ofc this might be just be the evil capitalist speaking inside me.
>just to wait about 50-70 years when elite will get completely rotten and unprofessional
It's a little funny that you define stable system like this, but hey, you have a point there and I'm not to deny it.
>Here the situation is vise versa: people for the regime, not regime for people
That's part of the collective mindset. You might see this the clearest in Japan. Just think of the Kamikaze-culture for example.
>"the West will help us". And the history shows that is doesn`t work as you mentioned. But it works in completely other way.
But it kinda does. Think of the Korean war, for example. Think of the possible consequences, if west hadn't intervened.
>organized force with good coordination and communication across the whole country
Afaik, Azov is part of global right-wing extremist movement. It has been well organized long before 2013-2014. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of it's members Russian (atleast Russian is the most used language in the battalion?)
That being said, I'm kinda sure, that they have ties to Russia's right-wing movements. And in west we know that Russia has been funding them _all_ over the west. And not just extreme right-wing groups, but also leftist. Sound crazy to you? Well, it gets even crazier. They've done it inside the Russia also, afaik. Idk if you've ever had such protests, where extreme right-wing & left-wing youth whack each other violently? If you follow the money, you usually meet Russia in the end of both sides.
That being said, I'm not saying that Russia is necessarily the only to fund every possible extremist organization. Has USA done the same, if it benefits them? Sure, I'm not to deny it.
What my point is here, that it's not unprecedented to find allies in weird places. But you shouldn't think that it's just west who is doing this. We see Russia doing the exact same.
>It is a bad way, you know?
When country faces a war, it's more like a rule than exception to restrict democracy. It is not ideal, but it's necessary. Even we Finns did that in 1939-1945.
But imho war should be viewed as really extreme situation. Another similar I can think of, well, maybe pandemic.
>Just reflect about this - both sides of this global conflict are in their informational bubbles and both of them see completely different reality
I realize this. This is the core reason why I'm here having a dialogue with you. You see, we people don't have to kill each other, even when we disagree on things. Our leaders on the other hand, they rely on us to kill each other, if they disagree on things.
I see the dangers with Russia being cut off. But it's a complicated matter. But here you must understood, what Putin's regime is doing in west. It's doing the very thing, what he himself has made illegal in Russia. He sees free media and democracy as weakness. Should west just let him use it against democracies freely?
>biological warlabs over Ukraine is Russian propaganda
It is. I don't mean to deny that there ain't such labs. What I am to claim tho, that there are many of such labs around the world. Even in Russia. I might point out, that the interest in Ukraine's labs prolly roots to CCCP.
What comes to covid, China & Russia are known to be the ones to sow the most propaganda. One of the main points of China's propaganda was to deny the origin of the virus. Besides that, the propaganda aimed for the virus to spread as far as possbile & destabilize west to the maximum.
I'm not saying, that China necessarily launched the virus, because idk if they did. What I'm saying, it's a really bad look for both China & Russia what they've done with the covid-propaganda.
>This is another difference between Russians and westerners. We know that leaders may lie, that the media lie, that every official again may lie
I think this is something that should be paid attention to. I mean, you Ruskis might find it "normal" for politician to lie out loud. In west it's unacceptable. I think this is central part of why Ruski is being banned from all over the social media platforms.
We often find our leaders hypocritical and deceitful aswell. But as soon as we catch them from lies, shit hits the fan. Ofc USA is bit of an exception to this, but in the European standards, USA is found to be developing democracy. For example, for us Finns Trump looked like a complete clown. This is important to realize.
Think of it like this. Politician lies in west, and media busts his ass (this happens to _every_ politician who gets caught.) Same goes with officials. You lie, and media makes sure everyone knows what you've done, and you end up losing your power.
You get the logic? Here media is found as people's _trusted_ ally against the elite. "The hounds watching for the ones in control."
Also, this still doesn't mean that we trust media blindly. This is where the media literacy comes in. We are taught not to trust it, but do our work to find the objective truth. For average westerner it's somewhat "easy" to separate between good and bad medias. Paradoxically, this might even strengthen the relation to media. You know? This is crucial to understand in the mechanisms of how free media works. You make shit news = you lose readers.
>Or it is democratic to start banning Russian language?
I'm not to defend this one. And tbh, I except change for such things, if they ever get to EU (there are EU laws which don't allow shit like that.)
I'm not naive enough to think that Ukraine is all cute and innocent. But they are in tough spot right now. You cannot expect anything good come out of it, before stable democracy is achieved. Even without the war, I'd say this would take decades. Now situation is even worse, as they have their hands full with war.
From western pov, it's easy to find Russian media being hypocratic in this sense. It looks like Russia has shoven another nation to middle of crisis, and then make news about how it's doing all shit.
And look, as I've before in this thread: After Russia has lost all it's crediability, it's really hard for it to get their message thru. We've seen so much propaganda and lies from it & Russian leaders, that even if it tried to tell the truth, it's often just disregarded as fiction.
>The same was from the other side - Western military and economical aid
Actually this hasn't been a secret in west.
If you are implying to theories about CIA involvement in 2013-2014, that's a different case. It is really hard to proof such thing. And as the saying goes, if you don't have proof, you don't have proof. Think of the logic: can any reliable media spread information, which it cannot back up with any reliable data? If not, it's concidered easily as a conspiracy theory.
>Russian speakers there who being considered as a treat for the Ukranian regime
Btw, I checked what's up with the language laws. But hasn't Zelensky defended the Russian speaker's rights? I found news about him criticizing his predecessor Poroshenko about such politics.
I understand that this will be delicate topic for years to come. Language is in the core of culture. And if it's a subject for division inside the country, something must be done, right?
One solution could be for the state to be bilingual. That's the case in Finland for example. We have mandatory Finnish & Swedish language. No body likes Swedish language, but what the fuck.
But anyways, umm, you might want to be cautious of who you mean with these "Russian speakers." I mean. I already told you about the couple of Finns who "represent" in Finnish optional "media". They are known to be liars and criminals. If they tell you the same story that they are telling to us, I'm 100% they are lying, and it's not just me, but 99,9% of the Finns. Why do I know this? It's their job. They use people of Donbas only for their agenda, they are 0 interested in the rights of them.
What do I mean by this? They are really, really harmful for them. Now think of what their existence does: they start to represent the people of Donbas with lies. If this people are let to be the voice of Donbas, it's a doomed mission. Not only because they had lost their credibility a long time ago already, but because their lies might have lethal consequences for the people they represent.
You've seen this "Russian genocide for 8 years" -stuff, right? We've seen videos, where people of Donbas try to argue with Russian soldiers, that "you thought saving us with bombs?" The Russian soldiers argue: "We came to save you from Ukrainians, there were genocide happening." And when the civilian tries to tell to soldier that it's not true - he cannot believe it, but he only keeps repeating what was said in Russian media.
Now from Finnish perspective: we've been there. Russian soldiers have came once to "save us", only to figure out that the people were doing fine. Back then, we had Finns just like Johan Bäckman & Janus Putkonen to tell the Russians these same kind of lies.
>I see one of the reasons is the US` foreign policy - Iraq, for instance.
https://euaa.europa.eu/country-guidance-iraq-2021/crimes-committed-during-regime-saddam-hussein
How do I know this to be true? There were Iraqis who seeked asylum from Europe (so from Finland also), because they were persecuted by S. Hussein. I know some of them personally.
I'm not to defend all of USA's foreign politics, but in Iraqis case, it's really hard for me to be objective, as I've heard their stories who were persecuted by Hussein. Tbh, I'm glad they whacked the son of a bitch.
>That`s why attempts to promote democracy across the globe is considered as harmfull; why should smb lose its traditions and national experience and to set a democratic regime and western values?
Here we come to something kinda complicated. Now look how this looks to western audience: There's no free media in Russia, journalist are being even killed. There's no opposition to speak for some of the Russian people. We see your leaders being all corrupt, and Russian people being poor.
Why should we believe, when it's the exact leaders who say "our people don't want such things", when we see them basically robbing your people? And here you must understand: it's not like Ruski's will couldn't be honored in this sense. But how do we know it's the people's will?
Many doesn't necessarily recognize the culture & long traditions of Russia, they only see a psychopathic leader doing harm to his country.
>national mentalities are completely different, how can we speak about common human values and common human rights?
I've spoken to Ruskis, whose rights have not be met. When talking with them, I got the feeling that I was fooled by Putin's propaganda. We've heard these speeches from him, that Ruski's don't want democracy or human rights. And look, I was once looking like this like "yeap, we should let them make up for their own culture."
Now after I've seen Ruski's asking, why wasn't this mad man stopped, I've found myself thinking "what the fuck was I thinking? That people don't want human rights?" and that's the exact moment when I came to realization, that I haven't been exactly immune to Putin's propaganda. Is there really a human being, that doesn't want his rights to be respected? It's easy to debate this issue, if your rights have not been touched - yet.
>The advantage of Russian system is that there is no need to listen to enraged mass who shout about smth they do not have any chance to understand deeply
This is a scientifical fact for any group of people. Authotarian leadership makes up for "efficient" decision making, but it comes with the low productivity and well being of group members. It's the vice versa for democratic leadership (this can be applied even at the work places.)
>There will be some sort of control on them from non-state forces and they will act for one`s clear interests.
Btw, actually, this might sound funny to you, but it might actually be best to have state funded media inside the country, besides the private media. But _not state controlled_. I think you probably understand the importance of having such media, because you recognize the problem of private media. In the end that's people's best hope.
>But the situation is worse than earlier
We shouldn't let all hope be gone just yet imho. If the people fall to cynicism, it might make our leaders to act hopeless and desperate aswell.
>even a person without any political background can win, as Zelenskiy did.
Just yesterday I saw some speech from him. I unironically ironically became convinced, that best background for leader might just be an actor. :D
Putin is already viewed as an aggressor. Imago wise he has not much to lose outside of Russia.
There might be scenarios far more dangerous than Finland. I could see NATO being challenged in Ukraine or at it's borders also.
>So, what is the reason to invade Finland?
Dude, could you see Russia attacking to Ukraine 10 years ago? Ukrainian leader's message to Finland has been like "Do not fool yourself to think that you are any different than us."
>Yes, some of Wagner`s PMC staff have the tatoos with Nazi symbols.
The main difference what I see, that Russia hasn't painted himself to be a nazi country. The war maniacs often are nazis or other types of white thrash. They are on all countries, and nobody likes them.
Imho what's happened in Ukraine, Russia's media has picked up the shittiest and darkest corners of it, and painted a picture of whole nation, meaning to dehumanize it.
Now this is the stupid part here. We might see real consequences, just because we fear some other consequences. Russia's recent action has brought up a fear about Russia being irrational and aggressive country, who is working on imperialistic power fantasy. Main ideologist of Putin (can't remember his name) has apparently painted a picture of Finland in really weird way. That rises questions, if Russia is to be interpret as having these imperialistic dreams for all of his neighbors. You see, the exact same arguments could be used against. We were also part of Russia once for a short period of time, even tho we haven't ever been Russians exactly.
Now you can argue, that our extreme right-wingers aren't so organized (actually the most radicals have been banned by law, as should be.) But if Putin starts to act all weird, I'm kinda sure we have some white trash to show their hate towards Russia first. They are not many, but enough so anyone with creative vision could make that look bad. And if that won't do the job, some false flags will. This is already expected to happen. Also remember: Russia has poured millions and millions on extremist groups all over the west.
Rationally speaking: I wouldn't see any reason to attack Finland. But it might also be, that I don't get putinism. How do you explain to average Finn, what makes us different than Ukraine?
Nobody cares about your Finland. Nothing is usefuel in this piece of shit, you can relax and onanize.
Putin is not stupid, he takes Ukraine because it still has a lot of industrial potential, also pecause gas tube is in here. He makes corridor to Crimea, unlocks water canals, and takes Azov and Black sea ports.
Again, your scan shit Finland has no use to us.
> what makes us different than Ukraine?
You're not slavic, for one thing. Ukrainians can understand Russian and vice versa, so it's a convenient target. We're all a family here, whether we want it or not, and when one member manages to achieve proper democracy and looks towards the West, it makes the rest angry. It's just hood mentality.
Military-wise, I don't think anything threatens you except the nukes, and even that is questionable. Month ago, I would argue that we have enough troops and equipment to attack whoever. Now that even Azerbaijan can casually walk into Karabakh and get no response from us, I don't think this war will affect any more countries. Kazakhstan talking with NATO also didn't trigger any reaction from Russian officials, even though that should've triggered a lot of concern from our officials.
> I don't get putinism
Nobody does, really, but Russia is kleptocracy first and foremost, just turned up to 11. People like to assign imperialistic tendencies to Putin, but he acts mainly to remain in power and the "Russia stronk" justification is presented to the masses to distract them. There isn't a long-term plan, there isn't a proper national ideology, even: if there was, we could've handled both the conflict and the sanctions much better as there would've been enough cash flowing into economy and not into private offshore accounts.
I don't mean to claim all of the Twitter users are Kremlin bots. But there are enough to make up narratives up from thin air.
Besides the Kremlin bots might not even be the most "dangerous" ones. There are people who get salary from Russia all over the west. Check Johan Bäckman or Janus Putkonen for example. They are on Kreml's payroll. Now what do you think people will think, as they hear them spreading shit, or even threatening Finland?
Now let me show you a concrete example.
Translation of the picture: "In Finland, illegal personal registers (kill lists) of Q-anon and Trump supporters are collected among anti-terrorist terrorists. The attacks are expected to begin soon"
And this is just a drop in the ocean of shit.
You understand? His job is to spread such shit in the internet, which makes absolutely 0 sense. He creates fear, and hate. And he gets paid to do it. This guy is known to work in the direct command of Russian intelligence. When he doesn't spread shit in the internet, he is trying to silence our journalists or so on.
Now think of this happening for decades. At the same time we see him (or guys like him) organizing groups, which only task is to shit on our democracy. They might even organize & fund people from totally different ideologies (extreme-left to extreme-right to anti vac to whatever.) The only purpose of such groups is to destabilize Finland, or west, because Finland ain't an exception. And how do they get support? Well, there is always a few people who get brainwashed if you spam internet full of propaganda.
Btw, as I've heard, in Russian media, this same guy is found to be "expert" in Russo-Finnish relations. That couldn't be further away from the truth. Here he is thought as a criminal.
What do you think is the response, if people think that such people represent Russia? Are they hating Russia for real, or are they hating what they perceive to be Russians?
And remember: his job was to create fear and hate around him.
Now think of this: Groups such as Azov, where there are organized right-wing extremists. Russia funds such shit in west. Azov also has Russian neo-nazis in their colours.
The case being here, that if Putin chooses so, he can create illusions, which will make you hate. Because he wanted you to hate. If you don't hate, he can't get support for his wars.
I think that most of the Russians don't even know about such things happening. This is the most absurd part here.
I'll answer you & others in a moment!
Denazification of Helsinki when?
>he has not much to lose outside of Russia
I can not accept with this. Currently, relations with Asian countries (India and China - at least) become stronger as trading is increasing. Many of states recently said (for instance, Turkey, Mexica, India) that they will not join to sanctions against Russia. It is important to understand that democracy and its values considered as necessary only in Western states. Many nations don`t pay attention at this and they prefer to continue to develop their relations with Russia. Moreover, there are many states and nations around the world having their own reason to hate (and therefore to not trust and not to support now) the West for the past and historical reasons. Smth like this, for instance:
https://vesti.uz/zapadnye-sankcii-obrekajut-afriku-na-golod-i-haos/
>Ukrainian leader's message
I should note that it is very difficult to consider him seriously. He dreams about reparations from Russia due to its military defeat, he speaks to Israel`s parliament with semi-Nazi symbol on his T-shirt and so on.
However, the difference is enormous, I mentioned this in my previous post, as well as this anon did
>Russia's media
Again, I can not fully accept with this. Russia`s official position - Ukrainians are our brother nation fooled by their corrupted and unwilling leaders. There was no hate officially promoted and this had been highlited all these 8 years.
>meaning to dehumanize it
Absolutely not. They did it by themselves. A recent video with Russian prisoners getting tortued by Ukrainian Army (not Azov and so on) was made by Ukranian troops. This is only one brief episode. For 7-8 years their media and propaganda had been depicting us as the worst foes, as peoples who must be killed.
>Russia being irrational and aggressive country
There were more than serious reasons for Putin to start what we see now. Ukraine was preparing to retake Donbass regions via militia and it wasn`t acceptable atleast as many people there already got Russian passports. Ukraine promoted very aggressive policy against Russia and desired to join NATO and this may lead to NATO-Russia direct confrontation or nukes placed over Ukraine`s territory.
This is not about imperial ambitions, this is mainly about Russia`s strategic security.
>the exact same arguments could be used against
It is a mistake not to split imperial dreams from geopolitics. I saw exactly the same arguments in some Kazakhstan`s pseudo-free media (as they are obviously just filials of more global structures as Freedom Radio) for many times. But..
Are the between-countries relations are extremely bad or agressive? Does your state promote very agressive anti-Russia policy? Does you state speak a direct treats to Russia? And, finally and most important, - is your state a real military treat for Russia? For Ukraine, these points were true.
>our extreme right-wingers aren't so organized
I do not fully understant this - what the scenario do you see there?
I`ll answer to this post tomorrow, it`s too late =)
Hi, bro! I'll answer your another message tomorrow. Just want to suggest u one movie I've just seen. U know, after all things happening last month and our conversation it looks absolutely brilliant. So perfectly picture of society and way to become next level through accepting even worst property of it. Adams æbler (2005) with Mads Mikkelsen. It's really worth to spend couple hours to watch it.
Hi Finn! Hope Jake is okay.
It seems everything will go to shit in a month.
Azerbaijan decided to fuck Russians, Turkey and Iran are getting drawn there too.
Who'll join next? Probably Georgia, maybe Poland.
Anyhow it seems great Free-for-all is coming. And it'll all climax in nuclear holocaust.
Anyhow, I always cherished your thread even though rarely written here. Since all around in /po info wars rage. So thank you and I hope your country will avoid all the fireworks to come.
>Ofc, just like our entire society, Russian art is very diverse. And in the context of politics, you can try to break it down into a large group of pop culture, oppositional and "patriotic" (pro-Putin). Part of pop culture is all sorts of meaningless things, like new wave rap, which sings about money, drugs and cars. Or pop groups that sing about primitive love (the relationship between a woman and a man) and other garbage. Or a movie about romance or youth comedies.
But is this really art? Or entertainment? "An entertainment makes us forget, an art makes us remember." I can find some confluence to some mainstream pop-artist in our culture. Only thing it has common with art, is how it's presented to people. Artistic means and creativity harnessed into fucking up people. It's an evil form of art. Government and art cannot live in symbiosis. They must be separate entities. Otherwise it's just an another measure for enslavement of people.
>This greatly develops culture and will also give a lot of useful things to world art.
Yeah I can get behind this. It makes the use of symbols and creativity as requirement. To be fully honest, I could even find myself enjoying such culture, I shit you not. Laughter might just be one of the best resistances against Putin.
>You must understand that the very fact of the war with Ukraine is already a political defeat that almost every Russian person feels. We understand that this is one nation with us with a common history and even having a different government and state border, we felt our connection constantly. We speak the same language. Almost every Russian has family members living in Ukraine. Everyone at work has a Ukrainian colleague. Many pop stars, artists and athletes who are popular with us are Ukrainians. It's about as if your government came to your neighbors' house and burned it down along with your school friend and his parents for voting for another political party. And then it came to you and proudly reported that it saved you from their bad influence.
May I quote this?
Man, this is simply stupid how we are pictured so that Ruski's have view it as a defeat. No one is happy for this. People in the west don't look it like that, except for the leaders. Westerners themselves think that Ukrainians are simply getting a better change for life.
>Only other armed violent people can resist an armed violent government
I get that. As I said to other anon, we've had revolutions on our own. I haven't read closely the history of all EU countries, but I could imagine this to be the case for every single one of the countries. This is also something crucial to understand in how westerners view things. We are continuing the tradition of European revolutions. One could even claim that such things that France's big revolution has shaped our culture to great extent, and the values that came with it. Such as the strive for equality, democracy, etc.
On a side note, that's actually why the Muricans hold the right to bear arms in such a value. They expect the state to possibly end up against the people, and they feel like that in the end arms are only way to secure democracy.
Rest of the west finds USA bit silly in this manner tho. As I've said, it resembles much a still developing democracy. I'm sure there would be better mechanisms to provide security against the leaders, but then on the other hand, Muricans have their history and who am I to speak for them.
>Actually, we already have a couple of cases when individual groups of soldiers refused to go to Ukraine and now everyone is waiting for the trials of these people to take place.
In western media we've seen these a lot actually. The war itself is pretty much pictured like Russians feel no motivation, there are many don't want to fight, troops rioting, and recently there was a news of Russian troops even killing their commander. Ofc, it's hard to know for sure how much of this is war propaganda meant for Ukrainians to demoralize Ruskis.
>Imagine what would happen if these supplies stopped completely
I would be naive to not expect that. I think that's actually what's going to happen. If it's not Ruski's, it will be the west to cut the ties even in energy politics.
And it might not even end up in Russia. China might be next on the list. There have been already been some stuff about the Uigurs. You see, in west it's not a good memory that no one stopped nazis. Now that there is concentration camps on China, future people will deem us guilty for not stopping them.
>Especially when he left Afghanistan so shamefully, without achieving any goals there
This is actually the best possible outcome for the conflict imho. They need to get the experience of getting fucked up with their psychopathic missions. As I said I expect world to be turning more and more under the same law, all over the world. But what USA is doing, they are doing it all wrong and causing opposite reaction. People need to want it by themselves.
Btw, I see USA doing the exact same mistakes that Russia in democracy in this sense. Have these wars really been the will of people? I doubt that.
Some lessons can be only learned by meanless shed of blood, I guess, and all we can hope that not one drop is shed for vain. Right?
>By the way, this is the reason why many oppositionists in Russia do not feel very good about the leftist orientation of Western society and the methods of Western propaganda
Care to elaborate?
I'm not exactly sure they can be compared to one another. West has always been more capitalistic. It needs to have leftist art, to find it's balance. And even leftist science. Look, idk if I've been too brainwashed by sociology, but afaik the most strongest of economies are the ones that look up for the well being of citizens. Capitalism is about people taking care of their well being by themselves through competition. It needs people to win to profit. And for winners to exists there must be losers. With it comes destruction and poverty. Inequality is inbuilt mechanism of capitalism.
My point being here, that capitalism works the best only when controlled strictly. But it still needs to be as open as possible. This is where art comes in also. People hate taxes, right? Art has power to make people hate pain coming from inequality even more. This is crucial to understanding when viewing western capitalism, especially the European forms of it. One could argue, that it's over simplified view to look at west being all capitalistic, without understanding the socialism involved in our culture. The balance often is found with the counterparts being in eternal open conflict.
Btw, would you also like to explain, if it's true that Russia has banned social sciences, such as sociology? If I were to make a guess, it's because Putin doesn't want anyone criticizing the regime? (I'm assuming that social sciences have tried, atleast?) I mean ain't that kinda their job, right? And not in a bad sense, but to provide critical critic for decision making.
>Do not comfort yourself with the illusion of the superiority of modern thinking, my friend.
I told to another anon here, that my perfect utopia would probably be a somewhat rural agricultural village democracy. People living off earth and just chilling out. I view one of the biggest risks of our culture to forget something important because of all the tech around us. I told to him, that if I were to wish for a nuclear war, I might want to some library to be spared.
Now I've found myself thinking, would I want that after all. I mean the books to be spared. It could offer humanity all fresh start. Think of it. We might build this horrific scifi hi-tech world. But will be any happier, or better off, than the American aboriginals were, living in their teepee?
If not, then what's all the work done for?
Now I must point out that when looking at the world, we have found our self from the middle of man-made crises. We have to save the species from ourselves.
I try not to be fooled. But I try to be realistic also. My utopia will never come to be true. The gears of evolution cannot be stopped. We need more, we need bigger, we need faster, etc. But there's also survivalistic part to it.
>And I can easily imagine that in 300 years people will study the intelligence reports of the United States, Russia and the Soviet Union with horror and be horrified:"How could these people kill others in such numbers just for the sake of resources, despite the fact that they did not know even 1% about the surrounding world and space that we know?"
Won't take even 100 years, if I were to guess. In worst case scenario there's no one to read them.
>Hawking, back in the 80s, was able to prove in theory that at certain moments such an amount of energy accumulates inside a black hole that it pushes it back out, converting it back into matter
Not funny. So complicated though that you are making me feel stupid (physics - not my strength exactly.) What you are basically claiming is that black holes can transform material into energy and reverse the process. And you think this could be - maybe - applied to dying humans in future?
>And every time you make some kind of unconscious reaction to external influences, you embody the immortality of our ancestors in real modern life. Pretty funny, isn't it?
It's not only funny, it's incrediable. You know the Jungian archetypes?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes <- Check under title "Biology."
>society leads to material prosperity, it seems that at the moment we don't know anything smarter anyway and we need to take capitalist logic as the basis of our life
West is already giving up on capitalism. Listen, when you look around, it's really hard to figure out if we are in middle of capitalist or socialistic plot here. Maybe it's just that we've reached a point of giving up on the binary thinking. Capitalism and socialism is to live together. It makes up for the best economic system at this point of human evolution. And the more selfless human's are allowed to evolve, maybe we can work towards even more socialism.
It is true that west has open market system. But we have art, social sciences, democracy and free media to restrict and balance it. Without exception all of them are leftist in their view. Even USA is embracing more socialistic system.
Also here you must understand the contrast. What's capitalism for us, is leftist for USA. Sound funny to you? That's right. Our most right-wing party in the parliament could easily be concidered as leftist party in USA. West = not USA, and USA is able to learn also.
And here we see Biden starting the job already, starting from the 0,01% richest. Might not sound big, but it's a big step for USA. If I were to guess, we will not see them turning back, but instead go deeper and deeper into socialism.
>But damn it, if all this in the end cannot prevent all these victims that we have now, then how can we talk about the correctness of this policy.
If world hurries towards unification, we'll see war. If we don't hurry, it takes longer, and the assholes basically torture their own citizens. Worst case scenario: the assholes grow in power, or even wreck the whole planet.
I think that our best change, as a species, is to be united. And the idealistic that I am, I think it can be achieved bloodlessly. The realistic I am thinks that leaders might think differently.
>if someone does not want to comply with your ideas about the correct and healthy existence of society, then you can calmly watch your army kill him, justifying it with benefits for your society
I'm shifting a bit context here, but look. We have a moral obligation to break ourselves, and each other, from the chains. What USA got wrong, and what we saw in Afghanistan for example, is that western values cannot be forced. (This has been a big topic of discussion after they retread from the west.) This is also something that you've (and other Ruskis) been teaching me a whole lot, in the context of why Russia can't adopt western methods to overcome their problems.
You know Marx having the idea of working class reaching class consciousness, and breaking the chains? I shit you not, if you view that it's the capitalistic arm trying to get to everywhere from west, it's not. It's much more than that. It's the world's best idea that's trying to reach everyone: to be free.
Here you must understand the absurdness. I get the feeling west is painted as capitalistic monster, which holds material values in central part of life. The truth is, that we've been ditching the capitalism for a long time step by step. And as I told you already in past message, we are stepping in the era of post-material values.
>Therefore, we can only wait, trying to survive in the current world, and try to explain to others the correctness of this approach.
This is the only way pacifist can support. I hope our leaders have the fucking patience. The thing here is, western leaders might be thinking that best way to save the west is to overthrow authoritarian leaders (and they might see it even as win-win situation, not just for selfish reasons, but there might be the idea of liberation of people.) Whereas if they just raised their hands up and minded their own business, there's no guarantee that authoritarian leaders wouldn't seek to destroy us. That is the case at the very moment.
Btw: I'm half way reading the covid article. It's interesting. Lets see if there's any surprises regarding the information. I'll comment on this later. I'll see if I can find the articles about global warming also.
I'll be also coming back to this argument >"in the name of God."
Sorry for possible chaotic message btw. Don't necessarily except it to be all consistent. Had a bit of rum. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuWTf7w9PpM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3uy8eMRRSk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STlGn9Nauoo
Where did you watch it? From some streaming service or did you download it from somewhere?
I'll watch it ASAP I'll find it.
And dw, take your time in answering.
Good night!
Hey there, Ruski!
Who's Jake?
>Azerbaijan decided to fuck Russians
What's this about? Wanna elaborate?
>Anyhow, I always cherished your thread even though rarely written here. Since all around in /po info wars rage
You don't say. This fucking piece of shit humanity is on it's good way to destroy the internet. Soon there will be only AI bots running conversations with each other. (And I'm not even kidding, we've already had one academic saying in one interview, that there has been examples in Finnish internet, where AI propaganda bots have been running a internet forum conversation for over a week in a row between the bots only. :D)
Feel free to join the party, if you will. Wanna tell a story, or your insights?
I hope we all can avoid turning into nuclear blast shadow. Have you been prepping yet?
Already happened. We've literally banned neo-nazis by law.
Heya!
I'll be answering your message tomorrow, as I get time on PC. Gotta get some sleep now, gotta wake up early in the morning.
Good night!
This is true only if your government's goal is to enslave you. I was born in the capitalist Russia with art 'free' of government, but I always prefer Soviet music, movies, books over whatever 'free' art we have today. The difference in quality is disastrous.
>Who's Jake?
Check out picrel, it's good.
>What's this about? Wanna elaborate?
Russia's forces currently stationed in Nagorny Karabah.
It's a contested territory between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Russians are peacekeepers there but strongly support Armenia, it's well known fact that if not for Russian support Azerbaijan would already taken Nagorny Karabah and maybe even consume Armenia.
Now it seems Azers want to exploit Russia's weakened state and start a new war of conquest.
Turkey was always supportive of Azerbaijan and moved some forces to region. It's also expected that Turkish drones will be employed by Azer forces.
Iran while being okay with giving Nagorny Karabah to Azers, thinks that it should be done in peaceful manner and seems to be ready to engage in all the fun if Azers would try to overtake other regions of Armenia.
Best case scenario for now is that Russia will GTFO, Azers will easily take Karabah and stop there, but if any of the countries have more ambitions, it could easily result in 4-side war in region.
>Have you been prepping yet?
What to prep for? This shit is unpredictable and most of my savings are frozen and destroyed in financial market.
>It's a contested territory
Ты ебанутый?
Нет. Обе стороны на неё претендуют. Проблемс?
I downloaded it from one of russian torrent tracker. It's one of advantages to live in Russia. Government don't really fight against those crimes, that don't danger to political stable. They can block a site with prohibited content, but we still use them via VPN. At my last job, someone tried to download south park and forgot to turn off the German proxy, and then we received an official warning from Universal, lol. I do not know what the rules are in this regard in your country, but the film was released in Denmark, not so far from U, so I think there should be a Finnish version somewhere. Perhaps you also have the opportunity to download movies from torrents via VPN or watch online. It may be worth trying to search through Yandex or other search engines. Because Google may not give out sites with pirated content in the search.
Go back to ylilauta, Pekka.
>Dude, could you see Russia attacking to Ukraine 10 years ago? Ukrainian leader's message to Finland has been like "Do not fool yourself to think that you are any different than us."
Putin has always been obsessed with Ukraine, and FSB treated it like it was their home soil. We interfered in their elections, had their politicians on our payroll on top of having a military base in Crimea, tons of people visited Crimea every year plus millions of ethnic Russians in the South and East of Ukraine. And, of course, everyone speaks Russian there, with most speaking it as their mothertongue; Ukrainians and Russians are as similar as Norwegians and Danes (or Finns and Karelians?). There's also that thing with Kiev being called the mother of all Russian cities, and people here generally thinking that Ukraine isn't a genuine country and Ukrainians are just LARPing Russians.
Finland, though? I don't remember a single politician mention it even once. For all intents and purposes, Finland has left our sphere of influence decades ago. Even if for some weird reason Putin wanted to take it, it would be the last on his list - first, there are much smaller Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, and then there are the Baltic countries, which could be captured in days, have a significant Russian minority and keep antagonizing Russia all the time. Not to mention that it will take years to rebuild the military (and the cities, too) and learn from mistakes, and that Russia is too underpopulated to occupy multiple hostile countries at once.
Anyway, even Georgia and Armenia are unlikely to ever be captured. They are prisoners of their geographical location and will never be able to completely leave Russia's sphere of influence. Fears of Russia regathering lost lands are misplaced; occupying hostile countries is simply too bothersome. All Putin ever wanted was to have a buffer of neutral countries. Remember, he used to be a pro-Western guy during his first term and openly contemplated joining NATO. There's a reason why he changed his mind by 2007, don't write it off to him simply becoming too nostalgic in his senior years.
>Many nations don`t pay attention at this and they prefer to continue to develop their relations with Russia.
But doesn't this kinda also prove my point possible? If they didn't care about Ukraine, they prolly wouldn't care about wars to come.
What comes to African nations, west also pays billions and billions in aid to these countries each year. I'm not talking about this only in the perspect of power politics, but more so humanitarian.
>Russian prisoners getting tortued by Ukrainian Army (not Azov and so on) was made by Ukranian troops
This has been debunked afaik.
Not that it matters. I don't need any proofs to realize that Ukrainians potentially do war crimes also. One could argue that it's next to impossible to avoid war crimes. "War is a beast it in self, that nobody controls." (This was said about Putin by one of our foreign policy experts.)
>Ukraine was preparing to retake Donbass regions via militia
Wasn't it FSB who launched the separatist movements in Donbas? From Ukraine's perspective it might look like that it was Russians all the way trying to take parts of their country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine
>On 19 July, Ilya Bogdanov, a former Russian FSB lieutenant in Vladivostok, defected to Ukraine claiming that he couldn't longer stand the lies used by Russia to stimulate the situation in Eastern Ukraine and Dagestan, where he served earlier.
>On 24 July, Russian army serviceman Andrej Balabanov asked for political asylum in Ukraine stating "I finally took a decision not to take part in this war and sided with Ukraine. This is my protest against Russia's political leaders". Balabanov claimed his unit had sent "military intelligence, GRU, experts and Chechens" into Ukraine to help the separatists. He went on to claim his unit had been "continuously brainwashed into believing they would be sent to Ukraine to save their Russian-speaking brothers".
>Ukraine promoted very aggressive policy against Russia and desired to join NATO
But only after Russia were aggressive towards them, right?
>This is not about imperial ambitions, this is mainly about Russia`s strategic security.
I'd believe the main reason to be economics & geopolitics.
And look, it's not like I'd blame Russia for doing that. I'm sure USA & EU to have their psychopathic agendas as well.
>It is a mistake not to split imperial dreams from geopolitics
One could also argue, that Russians might not be informed about all the possible reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Imperial_Movement
I might point out, that there are Russian politics behind the moment, and they fund and support far-right & neo-nazi groups everywhere in the world. As it does so, and all it leads back to this imperial movement, how should it be interpret then?
>your state a real military treat for Russia? For Ukraine, these points were true.
Imho it's absurd to claim that Ukraine would've been threat to Russia. Also, one could argue, that if Russia didn't want enemy out of Ukraine, it would've done all very differently.
All tho I understand the argument that if Ukraine is to join EU, it can become sort of a moral threat.
>our extreme right-wingers aren't so organized
>I do not fully understant this - what the scenario do you see there?
Point being shortly: If Russia wants to attack another country, it doesn't necessarily tell it's citizens the real reasons behind the attack. But it can make up reasons to absurd extent to make up for justification. This has to do with denazification of (insert nation.)
As Russia funds neo-nazi groups, they can pretty much make any country to look like nazi country, with the help of your propaganda machine. (Btw, I'm not saying that this is the central reason to fund the groups. The main focus is on destabilization and organizing 5th column inside the west.)
Also on a side note, this far-right stuff is _really_ messy btw. For example there are Russian neo-nazis fighting for both Ukraine atm, and for Russia also. My head hurts when trying to figure out this whole configuration.
Im from Karelia. Hi
I'm not talking about government necessarily, but capitalism as an economic system. Actually government has the main responsibility to restrict the capitalists, and regulate it, for it to be working system.
This also has to do with art, science & free media. If capitalists are not restricted, they will fuck people over. Capitalism works thru the logic of inequality, and this is why there needs to exist institutions to work against such development.
Thanks for explaining that out.
So this might works as an another route for escalation? That's not exactly good news. Are you expecting Russia to be involved in the possible conflict, or to step a side?
Turkish drones have become a cult phenomenon almost. Seems like that's where the future war are headed. Who knows maybe in future, the wars are fought between pro CS players via robots. :D
>What to prep for?
Possible nuclear winter ofc. Canned food, seeds, iodine tablets, tobacco products for currency..
We speak Swedish as our second language. It's mandatory in school. Everyone hates it.
It brings me some comfort to know that Finland ain't much of a thing in Russia. But then again, from Finnish perspective, Russia can already be interpret as being somewhat aggressive towards us.
>Not to mention that it will take years to rebuild the military (and the cities, too) and learn from mistakes, and that Russia is too underpopulated to occupy multiple hostile countries at once.
Apparently there is draft going on. Russia trying to gather 100k soldiers till May. All tho atm. it looks like they are headed to Ukraine, if the peace is not found.
And tbh, I view the peace talks as hopeless atm. Seems like Putin ain't exactly motivated to find peace.
Btw: What's up with the poisoning that happened in recent negotiations? How is it viewed in Russia?
>All Putin ever wanted was to have a buffer of neutral countries.
I hope you are right. And I hope there are politics to explain that in Finland. Atm it looks bad. I'm not necessarily a big fan of NATO myself. And tbh, Putin did a horrible job explaining the war in Ukraine. He basically used range of arguments which might sound to Finns like it could've been us.
And then again, there's the argument "How can we know how's the next leader after Putin? He can be even worse." The logic also being here, that to expect real help from NATO, you kinda have to apply in the times of peace.
And yeah, I remember how Putin was earlier. He looked like a progressive Russian leader, even a democrat. I've said it before in this thread but let me repeat it once more: once in an interview our ex-president (who was in term meanwhile Putin started his presidency) had heard from Putin himself, that he doesn't want to repeat the past mistakes of past Russian leaders, and to turn into dictator. In the same interview our ex-president also called him EU-friendly etc.
We've come far from those days, it feels.
>There's a reason why he changed his mind by 2007, don't write it off to him simply becoming too nostalgic in his senior years.
Wanna elaborate?
Hiiohoi halojata päivää!
Sup?
How's life in Karelia? You wanna join the Finnish empire? I mean, there doesn't exist one, yet, but I think we can work something out.
.. ;)
Русской культуры не существует
Русской нации не существует
Русской нации не существует
>How's life in Karelia?
Its fine. But due to recent events, I'm afraid we will start working for food.
> You wanna join the Finnish empire?
Yes. Don't you mind if i'm ethical russian?
>but I think we can work something out.
Time will tell. Personally, I want to live in a free democratic country
At least in the circles that I hang out the idea of Putin "wanting a neutral buffer" is itself treated as a aggressive maneuver. Which I do agree with, since it is essentially intervening in the decisions of your sovereign neighbors. That combined with the fact that NATO (at least by it's own words) is a defensive alliance that should pose no threat. Russia has already had NATO neighbors for ~20 years.
All of this makes that claim sound like that Russia just wants to be able to influence it's neighbors. NATO makes Russia militarily less of a threat and Russian economy is not large enough to pressure others. Hence Putin wants to stop countries joining NATO because it lessens his influence abroad.
By his actions Putin has caused a sentiment that as Russia's neighbor you have two choices:
1) Bow to Kremlin
2) Join NATO
>Yes. Don't you mind if i'm ethical russian?
Of course not. We'll establish somewhat autonomous state of Karelian. It shall embrace it's own culture how ever it likes. Just like Åland.
Only change that's going to happen culture-wise is that your kids would have to learn Finnish in schools as second language.
System will change to Nordic welfare model. You'll prolly dig it.
Would Putin let you go tho? I think that's the biggest problem.
Btw, idk if you knew, but the parts of Karelia that we lost in 1939-1945 wars, was offered back to us in 80's? Our then president didn't want 'em back tho. Idk why exactly.
> It shall embrace it's own culture how ever it likes.
Yes. In some karelain school kids learn karelian/veps/finnish language. Unlucky when I was kid we were not taught nonnative languages except english.
>Would Putin let you go tho? I think that's the biggest problem.
He is 69 years old. He will go in several years. The main problem is in our people. Will hey decide to choose scandinavian model? I hope they will do.
>Btw, idk if you knew...
Oh. I didn't hear that. Maybe the president din't want to deal with soviet
Putin is probably waiting for you guys to join NATO. We've seen how much they're gonna protect their allies on Poland, but big evil NATO expanding right to our doorstep will be another reason for why they're aggressive.
This conflict isn't about NATO or anything european, really. It's about Ukrainian government going insane. How tf are you supposed to react when a neighboring country
1) is openly talking about taking your territory
2) is openly talking about getting nuclear weapons
3) is already getting all kinds of weapons they openly say are there to kill you
4) is willing to destroy their own cities to get some updoots on reddit
5) has tried to missile strike your cities
6) has been shelling civillians for 8 years?
The Ukrainian government doesn't want to talk about anything even now, when their army can't move because there's no gas. It's an anti-Ukrainian government first and foremost.
Sadly, there is no other way to deal with this. Putin was trying for almost a decade at this point.
Finnish government isn't insane. I haven't even heard of any SS parades on Finland, which makes you a good neighbor by our standards. There's no reason to fear, but I understand why you do.
This conflict isn't about NATO or anything european, really. It's about Ukrainian government going insane. How tf are you supposed to react when a neighboring country
1) is openly talking about taking your territory
2) is openly talking about getting nuclear weapons
3) is already getting all kinds of weapons they openly say are there to kill you
4) is willing to destroy their own cities to get some updoots on reddit
5) has tried to missile strike your cities
6) has been shelling civillians for 8 years?
The Ukrainian government doesn't want to talk about anything even now, when their army can't move because there's no gas. It's an anti-Ukrainian government first and foremost.
Sadly, there is no other way to deal with this. Putin was trying for almost a decade at this point.
Finnish government isn't insane. I haven't even heard of any SS parades on Finland, which makes you a good neighbor by our standards. There's no reason to fear, but I understand why you do.
I'm curious: do Karelians identify themselves as being part of Finnic tribes in anyway? Or do they associate themselves to Finnish culture somehow?
May I also ask what's the average salary for Karelian people in Russia?
And dw. The scandinavian model will grow on your people.
> do Karelians identify themselves as being part of Finnic tribes in anyway?
In my school we were taught that karelian and finns are relative nations. Also we learnt some karelian and finns culture(Kalevala), history of Karelia. Definitely part of karelian wants to live lke finns. Soon there will be hard time in Russia. Maybe it will help karelian to choose right way.
>May I also ask what's the average salary for Karelian people in Russia?
It's low. About 30k rubles(it was about 420$ before war with ukraine).
1) I presume you are talking about Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. Those are not Russian territories, one is held by Russian backed separatists and one was annexed by Russia. Are you really justifying this invasion by Ukraine not being ok with Russia annexinng parts of it?
2) I haven't seen this anywhere except Kremlin propaganda.
3) You can't really blame them for arming themselves after what Russia did (annexation and arming separatists).
4) You are saying that Russia is not shelling and bombing the cities but it is actually Ukraine who does that? How you could blindly accept this piece of propaganda is beyond me.
5) You mean before the war? I haven't seen this anywhere that Ukraine would've launched missiles to Russia.
6) So you are saying that if foreign nation funds separatists on your soil you should just accept it and let them take piece of your land?
Putin hasn't tried. He has given absurd ultimatums and lied constantly, beginning with the Green Men on Crimea, shot down plane and then about Russians on Eastern Ukraine. At this point he has lost all trust.
It is absurd to think that nation like Ukraine would pose a military threat to Russia. This is about power, control and influence.
Твоё мнение сформировано западной пропагандой. Попробуй разбирать разные источники самостоятельно. Главная проблема, твоя и людей на западе в том, что вас с детства выдрессировали таким образом, что вы свято верите в то что вам вещают только истину, а с другой стороны - злая кремлёвская пропаганда. Ты не понимаешь, что это работает в обе стороны, и объективная картина мира всегда где-то посередине. Задумайся.
Сейчас ты будешь всё отрицать. Но попробуй допустить, что российские источники говорят многое по делу. Попробуй взвесить разные точки зрения. В какой-то момент тебе станет грустно от всего этого, и ты поймёшь в каком мире лжи существует человечество.
Kremlin has a tendency to talk about "Western media", that term itself is a bit misleading. You do understand that what they call "Western media" is actually media from dozens of different countries each with multitude of private non state affiliated agencies. Whereas Russia has state affiliated agencies and Kremlin imprisons those who talk about events not sanctioned by the state.
On the other side you have almost hundred individual news agencies not bound by law and without fear of imprisonment, and on the other side you have few state (state that has been shown to poison opposition leaders and other dissidents) controlled agencies bound by strict laws.
Also, the thing about lying is that after you've been caught you lose credibility. Russia has been caught multiple times, or do you dispute that the green men were Russian?
Hey, Cuckoo-kun!
Could u contact me via email [email protected] ? Got something important.
(If you need to make safe mail address, tutanota & protonmail are fast & simple in my experience.)
Thanks.
Hi, bro! Sent u test message. This is my work ip, so my nickname should be changed, but in email I've sent to u screenshot with markers of my posts in this thread.
But when Ukraine shelling Donetsk, it's okay and not crime at all?
Why do I choose them (the picture) over Gazprom?
> Also, the thing about lying is that after you've been caught you lose credibility. Russia has been caught multiple times
This is the prejudice he was pointing out. There are examples of (what you'd call it if the situation were reverse) Western lies right in this thread, yet your point is 'don't trust Russians, Kremlin this, Kremlin that'. If I were to follow this rule, I'd never touch Western media.
This is what you have when two parties have weapons. This is why there is a wish for multilateral disarmament and efforts for arms limitations.
>At least in the circles that I hang out the idea of Putin "wanting a neutral buffer" is itself treated as a aggressive maneuver. Which I do agree with, since it is essentially intervening in the decisions of your sovereign neighbors
Yes, sure, but aren't we all intervening in each other's affairs? For example, is China free to retake Taiwan, since it's considered a province of China by pretty much everyone ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-10/taiwan-s-last-diplomatic-friends-make-up-0-2-of-global-gdp-map )? Or is Cuba free to host our nuclear missiles (we've already learned it's not)? Or is Finland free do to so? Scrap our nuclear missiles, are you free to develop your own nuclear weapons, won't you get punished by the US? Don't you already have to comply with America's enormous list of sanctions against Russia and Iran for fear of being punished? What are you going to do if one day the US forbids you to export wood ( https://oec.world/en/profile/country/fin ) to China? What if one day you start warming up to Russia and the US decides you're not democratic enough? Are you really free to warm up to us?
And aren't we all restraining ourselves in order to not antagonize other countries, especially our neighbors or important partners? Aren't you refusing to recognize Taiwan? Do you recognize the Armenian genocide? No, you don't, and it has nothing to do with lack of sovereignty - it's just that Turkey is a more important partner for you than Armenia. Wouldn't you be bothered by a build-up of Russian troops on our border with you? We're free to do so, but don't do it, because it would anger you. The US don't bother Saudi Arabia with human rights abuse; we're friends with China therefore don't bring up their Uyghur stuff, in return, they don't scold us for our wrongdoings.
I could go on and on, but the idea is that restraint doesn't indicate lack of sovereignty. This is simply healthy partnership. Refusal to host NATO troops and weaponry is akin to us not amassing extensive forces on our border - an intentional restraint, a token of good faith.
>By his actions Putin has caused a sentiment that as Russia's neighbor you have two choices: 1) Bow to Kremlin 2) Join NATO
Russia doesn't care about pretty much anything except military threat. The US, on the other hand, destroyed dozens of countries that were unwilling to bow down, either militarily or economically. Are you really free to ignore the sanctions placed on us? Don't you wanna check? Frankly, there's a lot more bowing down involved when you align yourself with the US. What did we enforce on Kazakhstan, for example? What did we enforce on Belarus, except for our money (no, in 2020, we didn't send our troops to help Lukashenko stay in power)?
Anyway, Russia has always been content with Finland, like I said, I don't remember anyone in Russia being bothered by what Finland does. Have you been bowing down to us prior to 2022? Did Russia order you to take a stance on the Ukrainian conflict? No, it was the US, you're well aware that if you supported us (purely theoretically, of course - I know you wouldn't have done so), there would've been consequences.
>It brings me some comfort to know that Finland ain't much of a thing in Russia. But then again, from Finnish perspective, Russia can already be interpret as being somewhat aggressive towards us.
Basically, if the USSR didn't try to invade Finland post-WW2, Russia certainly won't.
>Apparently there is draft going on. Russia trying to gather 100k soldiers till May.
This is perfectly normal, we have a bi-annual draft (in spring and autumn), each amounting to ~130k conscripts. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вооруженные_силы_Российской_Федерации#Комплектование
But, contrary to popular belief, the Russian army is no longer conscription-based. 2/3 of the army are salaried professionals, conscription is used mostly to fill in the gaps and also to introduce people to military lifestyle and try to persuade them to sign the contract. With many conscripts being country bumpkins, this is often enticing (the smart ones usually dodge the draft, control is pretty lax these days). Using conscripts in an actual war has been banned after the first Chechnya War, as this is both inefficient and highly detrimental to domestic stability (families of those who signed up voluntarily are much more accepting of their sons dying on the battlefield; it's much worse if they were forcefully drafted to die).
There definitely were some conscripts in the Ukrainian invasion force, but it appears they were doing some low-risk jobs (supply and logistics). I take it some local commanders coerced their conscripts to sign the contract because they had a plan to fulfill, and no one really expected Putin to start an actual war, and those who did thought the Ukrainians would surrender en masse like they did in 2014. After the news of conscripts dying started coming in, the officials denounced the usage of conscripts and vowed to pull them back immediately. It appears they were true to their word, as I haven't heard of a single conscript dying in weeks.
What's more important is that Russia doesn't need cannon fodder, it needs actual specialists, people who can operate aircraft, anti-aicraft systems, missile systems, tanks, artillery, drones and the like; also military engineers and paratroopers. You can't teach that in a couple of weeks, and a lot of quality professionals have died in this war. We also need to restock on some of the weaponry, especially missiles, and learn from our mistakes. Also, people get tired of wars fairly quickly, you need several years of peace if you want domestic stability.
>And tbh, I view the peace talks as hopeless atm. Seems like Putin ain't exactly motivated to find peace.
Yes, he isn't. He can't afford to have sent all these people to die and gotten enormous sanctions slapped on for nothing. This is now both a matter of national prestige and his own political survival. He knows no one is going to lift most of these sanctions even if peace is achieved, and there isn't much the West can threaten him with that doesn't bear the risk of escalating to WW3. And he still views NATO expansion as an existential threat.
Ukraine is also a prisoner of its own propaganda now, they actually think they're winning. Even if Zelensky wants to, he can't afford to agree to any concessions, lest he be ousted. He doesn't even appear to agree to cede Crimea, even though the ship has long sailed on that one. The only thing he seems to agree to is to finally start upholding the Minsk Agreements, but it's far too late and no one trusts Ukraine anymore.
>there's the argument "How can we know how's the next leader after Putin? He can be even worse."
True, but one of the reasons Putin started this war is because he thinks his successor is unlikely to have his resolve. Either he solves the Ukrainian question now or it is forever lost.
And one more important thing. With Ukraine actively sabotaging the Minsk agreements (basically we return LDNR in exchange for amnesty, federalisation and revokation of the the language law) while massively strengthening its military being heavily inspired by Azerbaijan's successful war, coupled with many people openly threatened to oust Zelensky for trying to uphold the Minsk agreements, I think some kind of war was pretty much unavoidable. Ukraine would've eventually tried to get LDNR back by force, which is an obvious red line for Russia.
And even if Russia somehow decided to give up LDNR, Ukraine, extremely enthusiastic after regaining some of its territories, would've started talking about retaking Crimea, which is an even bigger no-no for Russia (I don't see any Russian leader ever giving up Crimea, even a democratic one. especially a democratic one, as that would be a political suicide). Which means we would have to have >200k soldiers constantly deployed around the border in order to deter Ukraine (since nuclear weapons are the very last resort) to even have a slight chance of deterring their >200k army, which is a nightmare. I doubt Ukraine would've actually tried to regain Crimea, but that still means living on a brink of war for decades, which is simply not fun, especially for people in the bordering reions. Hence starting this war now, while the Ukrainian army is still fairly weak and Russian speakers haven't ceased to exist.
I am fairly certain this is what went through Putin's head (on top of him viewing NATO expansion as an existensial threat), and even if this analysis is incorrect, Ukraine certainly made no attempts to make Putin think otherwise. Certainly none of this applies to Finland.
>Wanna elaborate?
Putin thought Russia was going to be an equal partner, that we would all solve the world's issues together in the UN Security Council. Then, slowly, he realised Pax Americana doesn't need partners, it needs vassals, and that even Europe itself has little to no sovereignty when it comes to geopolitics. He also realised that he only issues the US was actually concerned with was eradicating what was left of Russia's sphere of influence. The most glaring example would be Iraq: despite Russia, France, Germany and Canada opposing the invasion and insisting on a diplomatic solution, the US still proceeded with it under false pretext; the Security Council was simply ignored. In anything that was important to America, it was either the US way or the highway.
There were signs of that already before Putin came to power, with NATO starting a war with Yugoslavia, despite being vetoed by Russia and China in the UN Security Council; what was even more humiliating is that the war was started while our prime minister was flying to the USA to discuss the matter; later, NATO even refused to let Russian peacekeepers enter Kosovo, only allowing them to operate under NATO command. Both Saddam and Milosevic were effectively murdered. In 2008, NATO unilaterally declared Kosovo's independence.
As time passed by, he slowly realised there's no such thing as international law, it's only a set of treaties that no one intends to keep if they become inconvenient, and which no one can enforce. You can invade without any approval from the UN (Iraq, Yugoslavia); forcefully partition countries (Kosovo and, effectively, Syria); withdraw from any inconvenient treaty (IRNFT, ABMT, The Iran deal - EU opposed the withdrawal, but the US couldn't care less; etc); murder presidents (Saddam, Milosevic, Gaddafi); deny war crimes (the US does that all the time); openly undermine any country from within (by sponsoring dissidents and protesters and interfering in elections); either condemn or provide military assistance to insurgents depending on your national interests; occupy and install puppet governments; silence those who undermine national security (WikiLeaks, Snowden, Winner, Edwards, Hale); torture enemies (Guantanamo, Abu-Ghraib); engage in assassinations (lots of Iran stuff); ban enemy media (RT, Sputnik; deplatforming pro-Russia dissidents); instate de-facto apartheid (Latvia's noncitizens); and violently put down protests (Jan 6th, Catalonia). With time, Putin learned that might makes right, hence his famous 2007 speech - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_speech_of_Vladimir_Putin
This 1997 video of Biden openly mocking Russian interests shows the general attitude towards Russia, and it even predates Putin and Kosovo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huL4mTx55Kw
He also realised that Russia isn't considered an equal. While the US can get away with everything listed above, Russia got heavily criticized for pretty much everything it does. As they say, "Gods may do what cattle may not", with Russia clearly being cattle. Russia had been heavily criticized for the Chechnya war, despite simply restoring territorial integrity; then there was that whole overplayed Georgian affair which was basically about keeping status quo ante bellum.
In all of its wars, Russia hasn't even come close to the Iraq casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_civilian_casualties
Then there's also the case of double standards, the West has never dropped the Cold War mentality. Whether an insurgency or separatism claims are considered legitimate is determined ad hoc and the only thing it depends on are the US national interests, same with governments restoring territorial integrity. This way it is completely okay for Azerbaijan, Georgia or Ukraine to restore their territorial integrity by force, but not for China, Russia, Yugoslavia, Libya or Syria. It is completely okay for the Kosovars or the Kurds to pursue independency, but not for Barcelona. It's okay for Turkey to occupy parts of Syria through its proxy forces. It's (more or less) okay for the Saudi to intervene in the Yemeni war.
Then there's China. Its example clearly shows that no matter how friendly you are with the West, when you start getting too strong, the US will try to restrain you (same happened with Japan in the 80s). China started getting sanctioned despite trying its best to maintain friendly relations with the West. The US started trying to convince everyone that the Chinese claim on Tibet is somehow illegitimate, despite it being a part of China for centuries and no Western power recognizing the independency of Tibet during the Chinese civil war. Same with Hong Kong: despite ceding it to China, the Western narrative actively supported the separatists and even sanctioned China over it. Taiwan is where the Western stance is the most schizophrenic: it simultaneously considers Taiwan as a part of China and threatens China with consequences if it tries to establish control over it. At the same time, the West completely ignored the Spanish violent crackdown on its Catalan separatists, and Turkey's occupation of Northern Cyprus has been heavily downplayed. And let's not talk about Israel.
It's also obvious Putin didn't like the US sponsoring our dissidents and media that kept criticizing him; to him, it looked like shaking his hand while stabbing in the back. As we have seen in 2016 with the whole Russian interference hysteria, the US itself doesn't like when someone meddles in its affairs.
Notice I am not saying that what Putin does is honorable or lawful, I am simply explaining how we ended up here. What NATO sees in Putin is simply its own ugly reflection. There's a reason why most developing countries aren't really bothered by the war in Ukraine, and that is because they don't think it's any different from what the US and its allies had been doing for decades. I could go on and on, explain why Putin went the authoritarian role, but this reply is already a tad graphomaniac.
You do understand the difference between fighting separatists, who are funded by state that just annexed some of your territories, and invading another country?
>why Putin went the authoritarian route
selffix
Donbass is Russian land. People who live here are Russians. Ukraine is a separatist state and a joke. Страна-пидор, страна-хуесос
>annexed some of your territories
Crimea was taken with almost no resistance. Because Crimeans was wanting this. Russia is their homeland.
You do understand that that is just one nation? There are still dozens of other nations with multitude of media agencies that Russian propaganda labels under the "Western media". You also didn't mention the fact that Kremlin imprisons those that spread "misinformation", i.e not state approved information. How can you trust the media of a nation that doesn't allow freedom of media?
First I do not agree with Taiwan being a province of China.
> Cuba free to host our nuclear missiles
You for some reason equate Ukraine getting closer to EU and talking about joining NATO with nuclear missiles being stationed there. When Putin sent his ultimatums to West he didn't talk about nuclear missiles he talked about nations joining NATO. NATO is a organization with open doors policy. Those that wish to join and fulfill the requirements are allowed to join.
Not bringing nukes to the border is something that I would get behind, but that is not what Putin demanded.
> Russia doesn't care about pretty much anything except military threat.
Well it did invade Ukraine which is not a military threat with a absurd reason like "denazification".
> Have you been bowing down to us prior to 2022?
During Soviet times yes. Google "finlandization". When Soviet Union fell we didn't join NATO since we didn't think it necessary. That continued for decades and support for NATO was quite low (around 20%). That all started changing when Russia started sending it's military to neighboring countries (Georgia and Ukraine). Leaving us with the current NATO support around 55%.
I.e you are right, we didn't join NATO as long as we didn't have a reason to fear Russia. Putin has changed that in the last ~15 years.
Does not change the fact that Russia sent military units to another nation (which it lied for a while) to take land for itself. That is called annexation.
You really believe that for example if Russia had parts of it that do not wish to stay a part of Russia they should be allowed to leave and take land with them?
Piss off ebin xddd
>if Russia had parts of it that do not wish to stay a part of Russia they should be allowed to leave and take land with them?
Of course no, it's completely different cases. Russia is the Empire, a successor of Russian Empire. And Ukraine is a joke. Russians are a great nation who builds an empire, and they have right to do anything they want, "right of the strong one". I was reading right-wing bloger Dmitry Kubarev on this topic (aka Arguendi) and he explained a lot on Russia's politics on Ukraine.
I sincerely hope that people that share your logic and sentiment are in the minority.
Yes, are a minority (just as always), but have many influence on Russian politics :)
Look pal, you talk like you live in Equestria, were truth justice and love rules. But, the world is an angry place as the guy used to say. Russia taking some land from ukraine by force, couse she has that force. Donbass and Crimea people are willing to join Russia mostly, otherwise it wont happen. It's highly difficult to occupy an unwilling territory and not get traitorous backstabbing false alliens within, no one whats to have such part in within. That's why there is no goal to occupy territory of ukraine like Kiev etc.
Geopolitics arena doesn't calls such for nothing. It's a pit for dogfights, if you believe otherwise you need to check you purple glasses. I's not like I like it, it's just how it is. If Finns had power to take all your peninsula by force, you probably would. (Not you personaly, lol)
Ukranians are hardly a nation, their language fictional, all their history is withing Russia. They are our family in many way, huge amount of Russians have kin there. They got their borders only recently, how long ago? 30 years?
It's like no such thing as justfull war, with some tiny exeptions. But this one is just as justfull as can be: our people by blood, by language, by common history, separated from us with crash of CCCP, and some of them whats back to Russia, from Ukraine !after! revolutions that happend 2014. Is this a separatism? This is what you call a separatism?
I have no hate to ukranians.
I have some relatives there wich I prey are fine.
Me personaly have no kin there, but Im not sure couse both my grandpa's are orphants of world war, they never knew their parens, so, who knows? But I feel ukranian people as my bruden, and this war as fratricidal.
But they don't, they are tought to be anti-Russian, now that's what really criminal here.
Didn't read the thread btw, lol.
Anyway, what's ur job? How do you earn money, llol? Im a nurse.
>our people by blood, by language, by common history, separated from us with crash of CCCP, and some of them whats back to Russia
Ukranians hate you, despise you, and have nothing to do with poor, authoritarian and degenerate Russia. I suggest you to kill yourself.
> Russia taking some land from ukraine by force, couse she has that force
Well that is what I and most of the West are saying. It is Russia that has come up with all of these wild justifications for it's actions that nobody here believes (denazification, biolabs, nuclear weapons etc.).
> Anyway, what's ur job? How do you earn money, llol? Im a nurse.
Programming, mostly machine learning related topics.
Ну за всех-то не говори.
Чё такой злой? Что именно тебя задело?
Отожмись, душик контрастный прими - полегчает. Нервы надо беречь.
It's just the occasions, they have to be. You can't say: "we invading other country just coz we can ayayay" whan you are president, lol. It's just for me to say that. It's politics, politics is one big lie, ocusing a politician in lie is like ocusing butterfly for flying.
Ахахахха блять, вы там реально думаете, что хоть КТО-ТО в Украине желает присоединиться к скотоублюдии? Люди с Донбасса уже хапнули рузке мира и теперь не знают куда бежать, вы их жизни уже второй раз подряд рушите. Скажи мне, сын собаки, зачем вы бомбите русскоязычные города? Харьков и Мариуполь были русскоговорящими, там жило много русских, сейчас же русне простреливают колени.
Хуй знает, я не до конца понимаю причины и цели операции. Наверное действительно демилитаризация, обезоружить. А города бомбят потому что там войска, что непонятного? К России кто-то да хочет присоединиться, я пару таких людей встречал в чат-рулетке.
Ты, я гляжу, Россиюшку не любишь? Куда переехать планируешь, есть успехи в этом направлении?
Ну почему я сын собаки? Братик, что я сделал тебе? Бака...
Не брат ты мне, сын собаки. Желаю, чтобы твоих родственников ебнуло расеянской бомбой, может тогда дойдет.
Двачую. Совсем охуели боевые няши. С дивана сидят поддерживают всю эту хуйню, а не дохнут как днровцы которых мобилизацией пачками забирают совсем молодых
Ну я не то чтобы поддерживаю. Оно просто происходит, без моего участия. Мне сложно такое оценивать, яб не устраивал всё это если был у руля. Но еслиб я был у руля, я бы был не я.
Та за щё, ёпта, за щё?
> that is just one nation
The others repeat what the U.S. says. It's a single entity called by different names: the West, the free world, the civilized world, the whole world, the developed countries, etc.
> Kremlin imprisons
Who imprisoned Julian Assange? (Not the Kremlin.)
> How can you trust the media of a nation that doesn't allow freedom of media?
Show free media to me, I'll be trusting them. If you can't, think about your use of these phrases: 'Russian disinformation', 'Russian lies', 'Kremlin propaganda'. All these coined terms exactly are propaganda, so you speak propaganda without noticing it.
So-called west doesn't have state controlled news outlets, маня. It's called democracy, look it up, sweetie. In the west you can consume all kinds of takes.
Like in the USA you can watch Fox news which continues spouting pro-Russia stuff. Take Tucker Carlson for example. The Kremlin has been showing videos with him on the Russian TV. A lot of republicans support Putin openly.
At the same time you can watch CNN or CNBC which promote the opposite view on the whole situation.
Я же выше спрашиваю : почему американские корпорации должны быть ближе мне, чем Газпром-медиа? То, что в Америке Такера, республиканцев, Трампа клеймят пророссийскими, путинскими агентами, шпионами красных, не значит, что они таковыми являются. Такера смотрел, 'spouting pro-Russia stuff' не услышал.
A lot of countries do have state controlled outlets at least in the commonwealth countries but they're supposed to be more neutral and also not directly accountable to the administration, they just receive funding. They're expected to publish stuff that's critical of the government and show viewpoints of different parties. Examples being British Broadcasting Company, Canadian Broadcasting Company, Australian Broadcasting Company etc. A lot of their purposes though is just to point out some niche details of how the country itself is dealing with a crisis etc and what the debate within the government is. There is always criticism of this though, in that a lot of the time naturally there is just a bias in place (usually left wing here in Canada), and opponents of the view they support always complain about this.
Example talking about gas prices, they ask questions critical of the governments response:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDGaKPwDfqs
1:
>First I do not agree with Taiwan being a province of China.
Yes, you don't, and I'm fairly confident your opinion is shared by the majority of Finns.
But your government does, as does pretty much every government, including the US. The reason being willing to remain friends with China.
>You for some reason equate Ukraine getting closer to EU and talking about joining NATO with nuclear missiles being stationed there. When Putin sent his ultimatums to West he didn't talk about nuclear missiles he talked about nations joining NATO
Yes, because the moment a country joins NATO, you instantly lose any leverage you had over their arms - forever. They can basically host any weapons they want, and even if they sign a paper promising not to, they can break said promise whenever they want. After all, who's going to punish them for it? America, the country that will supply said weaponry?
For example, if one day Latvia decided to host American nuclear missiles, what could we do to prevent that - start a war with them, and, effectively, with NATO?
Or, let's say 30 years down the line, the US develops some fancy AI system capable of shooting down any of our missiles and decided to deploy it in Estonia, nullifying our nuclear weapons and making us an underpopulated country with 1 soldier per mile of border, what could we do? Call them names?
>NATO is a organization with open doors policy. Those that wish to join and fulfill the requirements are allowed to join.
This is meaningless - any entity can join any organization so long as it wishes to do so and fulfills some "requirements".
NATO used to have no set of requirements apart from some vague mumbo-jumbo about democracy https://1997-2001.state.gov/regions/eur/fs_members.html
With the establishment of Membership Action Plan, things actually got even more vague, with aspirants having to write annual pointless essays on their economy, social justice and their ability to contribute to the effectiveness of the Alliance - https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_27444.htm
Considering that there are no KPI and accession requires unanimous support, there are simply no requirements - NATO will easily accept anyone it wants to see, and refuse anyone it doesn't want to. It also only allows European countries (despite having Turkey and Canada), so not really open doors, either.
What NATO means when they talk about open doors is that they aren't going to take orders from Russia. Understandable - Russia is just as prideful - but a recipe for disaster.
>I.e you are right, we didn't join NATO as long as we didn't have a reason to fear Russia. Putin has changed that in the last ~15 years.
That is both completely understandable and unfortunate, as you joining NATO can send us all into yet another cycle of instability.
>NATO (at least by it's own words) is a defensive alliance that should pose no threat
Unfortunately not, Afghanistan, Libya and (twice) Serbia were bombed by a NATO coalition. You might consider those operations legitimate, but nevertheless, they weren't defensive.
>First I do not agree with Taiwan being a province of China.
Yes, you don't, and I'm fairly confident your opinion is shared by the majority of Finns.
But your government does, as does pretty much every government, including the US. The reason being willing to remain friends with China.
>You for some reason equate Ukraine getting closer to EU and talking about joining NATO with nuclear missiles being stationed there. When Putin sent his ultimatums to West he didn't talk about nuclear missiles he talked about nations joining NATO
Yes, because the moment a country joins NATO, you instantly lose any leverage you had over their arms - forever. They can basically host any weapons they want, and even if they sign a paper promising not to, they can break said promise whenever they want. After all, who's going to punish them for it? America, the country that will supply said weaponry?
For example, if one day Latvia decided to host American nuclear missiles, what could we do to prevent that - start a war with them, and, effectively, with NATO?
Or, let's say 30 years down the line, the US develops some fancy AI system capable of shooting down any of our missiles and decided to deploy it in Estonia, nullifying our nuclear weapons and making us an underpopulated country with 1 soldier per mile of border, what could we do? Call them names?
>NATO is a organization with open doors policy. Those that wish to join and fulfill the requirements are allowed to join.
This is meaningless - any entity can join any organization so long as it wishes to do so and fulfills some "requirements".
NATO used to have no set of requirements apart from some vague mumbo-jumbo about democracy https://1997-2001.state.gov/regions/eur/fs_members.html
With the establishment of Membership Action Plan, things actually got even more vague, with aspirants having to write annual pointless essays on their economy, social justice and their ability to contribute to the effectiveness of the Alliance - https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_27444.htm
Considering that there are no KPI and accession requires unanimous support, there are simply no requirements - NATO will easily accept anyone it wants to see, and refuse anyone it doesn't want to. It also only allows European countries (despite having Turkey and Canada), so not really open doors, either.
What NATO means when they talk about open doors is that they aren't going to take orders from Russia. Understandable - Russia is just as prideful - but a recipe for disaster.
>I.e you are right, we didn't join NATO as long as we didn't have a reason to fear Russia. Putin has changed that in the last ~15 years.
That is both completely understandable and unfortunate, as you joining NATO can send us all into yet another cycle of instability.
>NATO (at least by it's own words) is a defensive alliance that should pose no threat
Unfortunately not, Afghanistan, Libya and (twice) Serbia were bombed by a NATO coalition. You might consider those operations legitimate, but nevertheless, they weren't defensive.
2:
>Well it did invade Ukraine which is not a military threat with a absurd reason like "denazification".
Yes, the pretext is laughable, it's straight out of his 2014 book. No one expected a real war, he thought the Ukrainians would mostly surrender on sight, just like they did 8 years ago. If he expected a full-fledged war, no way he would've only allocated 200k troops for the invasion (since UA army has just as much, and if you include their paramilitary, they even outnumber the invading force). When they realised the blitzkrieg has failed, they had to manufacture consent, and that meant doubling down on the nazi claims - NATO issue is too complex and doesn't really inspire people.
But the real reason is pretty much this (copy-pasting from my previous post):
>One of the reasons Putin started this war is because he thinks his successor is unlikely to have his resolve. Either he solves the Ukrainian question now or it is forever lost.
>And one more important thing. With Ukraine actively sabotaging the Minsk agreements (basically we return LDNR in exchange for amnesty, federalisation and revocation of the language law) while massively strengthening its military being heavily inspired by Azerbaijan's successful war, coupled with many people openly threatening to oust Zelensky for trying to uphold the Minsk agreements, I think some kind of war was pretty much unavoidable. Ukraine would've eventually tried to get LDNR back by force, which is an obvious red line for Russia.
>And even if Russia somehow decided to give up LDNR, Ukraine, extremely enthusiastic after regaining some of its territories, would've started talking about retaking Crimea, which is an even bigger no-no for Russia (I don't see any Russian leader ever giving up Crimea, even a democratic one. especially a democratic one, as that would be a political suicide). Which means we would have to have >200k soldiers constantly deployed around the border (since nuclear weapons are the very last resort) to even have a slight chance of deterring their >200k army, which is a nightmare. I doubt Ukraine would've actually tried to regain Crimea, but that still means living on a brink of war for decades, which is simply not fun, especially for people in the bordering reions. Hence starting this war now, while the Ukrainian army is still fairly weak and Russian speakers haven't ceased to exist (due to the language laws).
>I am fairly certain this is what went through Putin's head (on top of him viewing NATO expansion as an existensial threat), and even if this analysis is incorrect, Ukraine certainly made no attempts to make Putin think otherwise. Certainly none of this applies to Finland.
A very important fact: despite the WW2 being the civic religion of Russia and the successful defense of Leningrad one of the cornerstones of said religion, literally no one either mentions or even remembers who actually laid siege to the city, it's as if this fact simply disappeared from the national memory, it's "the Germans, obviously". It probably has something to do with us invading you in 1939 (something we don't talk about either), and probably at least a bit because you weren't too zealous with the siege, but I'm pretty sure the main reason is that Finland was (and still is) viewed as a genuinely friendly country. I wouldn't want that to fade away, but I don't think Putin would take kindly to another neighboring country being accepted into NATO, given the circumstances.
You probably haven't heard of that, as it isn't too interesting for your media, but Putin takes NATO expansion and militarization very seriously. Throughout these past 15 years, he kept complaining about stuff like Aegis Ashore and what he called the violations of the INF treaty. He was ignored every single time, and I guess this time he had to show his red lines are to be taken seriously - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_missile_defence_system
>Well it did invade Ukraine which is not a military threat with a absurd reason like "denazification".
Yes, the pretext is laughable, it's straight out of his 2014 book. No one expected a real war, he thought the Ukrainians would mostly surrender on sight, just like they did 8 years ago. If he expected a full-fledged war, no way he would've only allocated 200k troops for the invasion (since UA army has just as much, and if you include their paramilitary, they even outnumber the invading force). When they realised the blitzkrieg has failed, they had to manufacture consent, and that meant doubling down on the nazi claims - NATO issue is too complex and doesn't really inspire people.
But the real reason is pretty much this (copy-pasting from my previous post):
>One of the reasons Putin started this war is because he thinks his successor is unlikely to have his resolve. Either he solves the Ukrainian question now or it is forever lost.
>And one more important thing. With Ukraine actively sabotaging the Minsk agreements (basically we return LDNR in exchange for amnesty, federalisation and revocation of the language law) while massively strengthening its military being heavily inspired by Azerbaijan's successful war, coupled with many people openly threatening to oust Zelensky for trying to uphold the Minsk agreements, I think some kind of war was pretty much unavoidable. Ukraine would've eventually tried to get LDNR back by force, which is an obvious red line for Russia.
>And even if Russia somehow decided to give up LDNR, Ukraine, extremely enthusiastic after regaining some of its territories, would've started talking about retaking Crimea, which is an even bigger no-no for Russia (I don't see any Russian leader ever giving up Crimea, even a democratic one. especially a democratic one, as that would be a political suicide). Which means we would have to have >200k soldiers constantly deployed around the border (since nuclear weapons are the very last resort) to even have a slight chance of deterring their >200k army, which is a nightmare. I doubt Ukraine would've actually tried to regain Crimea, but that still means living on a brink of war for decades, which is simply not fun, especially for people in the bordering reions. Hence starting this war now, while the Ukrainian army is still fairly weak and Russian speakers haven't ceased to exist (due to the language laws).
>I am fairly certain this is what went through Putin's head (on top of him viewing NATO expansion as an existensial threat), and even if this analysis is incorrect, Ukraine certainly made no attempts to make Putin think otherwise. Certainly none of this applies to Finland.
A very important fact: despite the WW2 being the civic religion of Russia and the successful defense of Leningrad one of the cornerstones of said religion, literally no one either mentions or even remembers who actually laid siege to the city, it's as if this fact simply disappeared from the national memory, it's "the Germans, obviously". It probably has something to do with us invading you in 1939 (something we don't talk about either), and probably at least a bit because you weren't too zealous with the siege, but I'm pretty sure the main reason is that Finland was (and still is) viewed as a genuinely friendly country. I wouldn't want that to fade away, but I don't think Putin would take kindly to another neighboring country being accepted into NATO, given the circumstances.
You probably haven't heard of that, as it isn't too interesting for your media, but Putin takes NATO expansion and militarization very seriously. Throughout these past 15 years, he kept complaining about stuff like Aegis Ashore and what he called the violations of the INF treaty. He was ignored every single time, and I guess this time he had to show his red lines are to be taken seriously - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_missile_defence_system
test
yeap, that's my message from protonmail
> the blitzkrieg
Is there a source of this, or did you made it up, just like in your picture? Official sources say there is no need for haste. People who say the special military operation in Ukraine was meant to be a 'Blitzkrieg' are usually the same people who compare Z with the Hakenkreuz.
hi pepe. how are you?
Also'he sent u article about definition of love, that I promised earlier
Test
>But is this really art? Or entertainment?
This is a difficult question in the context of Russian art. Direct slogans for any of the political parties are not often used. Moreover, any creativity that directly exposes the problems of the government will simply be blocked. Therefore, we simply understand that only an artist with a certain political position can raise certain topics. After all, we do not have a changeable government, and elections are just a picture for legitimizing the current government, which are easily forged. Our government declares its values quite clearly, and therefore we understand where it is about supporting the government, and where its problems show. For example, Viktor Tsoi never sang about politics, war or social problems. All his songs are about inner freedom or drugs. But everyone understands that these topics are alien to the Soviet man, so his songs became anthems of the collapse of the Soviet Union and helped people in finding a new inner idea instead of the Soviet slogan. Although the Soviet songs were about freedom, but freedom from Western values. Both are sung about human freedom, but everyone understands the difference. Or social problems. In our country, where Putin has been building all the systems for 20 years, everyone understands that only he can be the source of these problems. Therefore, patriotic artists will not show social problems in their work. Like for example in the movie "The Fool", which you were advised in the last thread. Love for the motherland can also be depicted in different ways and in one of the following messages, I will tell you about a man who is a true patriot in the best sense. Or, for example, this was Sergei Shnurov, whom I have already mentioned, until he began to sing songs against those who do not like the government.
>Man, this is simply stupid how we are pictured so that Ruski's have view it as a defeat.
It does not depend on the Western picture. This is the usual understanding of the current situation. Of course, I talked about what led to the current tragedy and I can tell you many more reasons and events that objectively show part of the blame for the current events on the Ukrainian leadership. But the degree of brutality with which our government is fighting them cannot be justified. Brothers should always be able to negotiate. And the fact that there was no avoiding the war in the year 22 only says that mistakes were made much earlier. If we consider our side to be more intelligent and correct, then this mind should manifest itself in the ability to resolve such issues peacefully, especially if you speak the same language and have a common past. After all, with the help of missiles, you can always solve the problem and attacking first you deprive yourself of a moral advantage.
>You see, in west it's not a good memory that no one stopped nazis. Now that there is concentration camps on China, future people will deem us guilty for not stopping them.
Exactly. This is the problem of capitalist society. We are ready to put up with any crimes as long as they do not concern us. In addition to the Uighurs, there are also monstrous violations of women's rights in Arab countries. And they are all beloved partners for the West. Just like Putin was before he started the war, although we had torture in prisons and beatings during protests and murders of opposition politicians and journalists. Given that both Putin and his inner circle had real estate and money in the West, we always believed that he was just a kind of overseer from the West. He makes sure that the barbarians do not accidentally press the red button and continue to extract gas and oil cheaply for the Western owners. Technically, it was exactly like that. Right now, America is urgently trying to beg for oil in Venezuela, whose president they killed, or in Iran, whose government was recently called "the worst people on the planet."
>Some lessons can be only learned by meanless shed of blood, I guess, and all we can hope that not one drop is shed for vain. Right?
Of course it's true. Humanity simply cannot give up its habits at one moment. In fact, wars and larger than this constant occur on the planet. It's just that this time the war is taking place on the territory of Europe with the participation of countries important for the world economy. The good news is that due to economic mechanisms and technological progress, we are able to reduce the number of victims. During the Second World War, about a million people died every month. This time we are talking about several tens of thousands.
>My point being here, that capitalism works the best only when controlled strictly. But it still needs to be as open as possible. This is where art comes in also. People hate taxes, right? Art has power to make people hate pain coming from inequality even more. This is crucial to understanding when viewing western capitalism, especially the European forms of it. One could argue, that it's over simplified view to look at west being all capitalistic, without understanding the socialism involved in our culture. The balance often is found with the counterparts being in eternal open conflict.
This is a very big topic. First of all, we need to understand the reasons for the entry of left-wing art into the popular sphere. Perhaps this is a manifestation of the problems of capitalism. Or maybe it's just that capitalism has given so much freedom to people who came from unfree countries. It's not for nothing that blacks and immigrants become the main physical force of the left movement. And if we talk about feminists. After all, in an unfree country they could not exist at all. And under capitalism, they have real political power. Therefore, politics should be handled not by populists who simply follow the opinion of the crowd, but by principled people who know how to distinguish the real problems of society from the attempts of some groups to express themselves. We understand, for example, that most people like to pose as a victim. This attracts a lot of attention and makes it possible to commit bad deeds with impunity. For example, two days ago, Russian journalists took a big interview with Zelensky. Do you know what was the most popular topic on Russian Twitter the next day? That all the journalists at this interview were men. But feminists in our country are against Putin. But what difference does it make if there is an opportunity to additionally advertise your account?
>Btw, would you also like to explain, if it's true that Russia has banned social sciences, such as sociology?
No no, We don't have an eastern dictatorship here, like in Turkey, for example. Therefore, even a journalist can openly talk about hatred of Putin. The problem can only be if you start calling for a protest.
In fact, in Russia you can get one of the best basic university degrees in the world. The problem is not the knowledge that is taught there. It's about how this knowledge is applied in politics and business. I have already told you that both Western and Russian society in general have similar problems. It's just that we tend to focus on the fact that they have natural problems there, and we have their cause in the human factor or in the influence of Western politics. Well, I mean, I've already given you the example of the Germans, who were a very educated nation, but nevertheless considered the other races worthy of death. Although in addition to the theory of race superiority, they studied the same biology and anatomy at university and school as we did.
>I told to another anon here, that my perfect utopia would probably be a somewhat rural agricultural village democracy.
I have already given an example of the need for peaceful and aggressive people to coexist in society. I am sure that without the desire for excellence, there would be no technical and medical development.This is the part of human nature that we cannot defeat without destroying all of humanity. It's just that while the advantages of the creative way of implementing this aggression are available to a minority.
>What you are basically claiming is that black holes can transform material into energy and reverse the process. And you think this could be - maybe - applied to dying humans in future?
Actually, yes. That's why people are afraid of the appearance of black holes in our galaxy. But it was just an example of how what we thought was an example of the imminent disappearance of a material body is actually just a natural transition of matter from one state to another over time. About the same way our ancestors believed that evaporating water disappears forever. Also, I think someday the next form of existence of our consciousness will be discovered. I am not sure that it will be much like awakening oneself in a new body, as some religions draw it, at least, as I have already noted, we can talk about the unconscious awakening of our ancestors in our behavior.
>Check under title "Biology."
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. But I prefer to call it "evolutionary scenarios" rather than archetypes. It's just a concept that I came up with myself to use in my theory because it better explains the origin of these archetypes. Those of them that proved useful for the survival of our ancestors remained with us and their first goal is the survival of our species under various scenarios of interaction with the outside world. For example, you can recognize an alarm or a cry for help in any language or in any country. Because certain intonations are used only in a certain situation. At a time when words did not exist yet, people could only convey by sounds, for example, the approach of danger to their tribe.
>West is already giving up on capitalism. Listen, when you look around, it's really hard to figure out if we are in middle of capitalist or socialistic plot here. Maybe it's just that we've reached a point of giving up on the binary thinking. Capitalism and socialism is to live together. It makes up for the best economic system at this point of human evolution. And the more selfless human's are allowed to evolve, maybe we can work towards even more socialism.
That's exactly how it is. That is why I see that Putin's plan may be much more complicated than it seems at first glance. After all, this whole idea of joining NATO or the EU contradicts capitalist logic. The capitalist always thinks about individual benefit. And by hastening this process of transition to a more socialist ideology, Putin is forcing the West to make mistakes because of the immaturity of such an idea. After all, unification means a willingness to share both good and bad. And there are many problematic countries in these unions, which have enough problems of their own. And so countries like Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and others. Now they cannot find a common language about the strategy of the fight against Putin.
Putin knows this for sure, because that's how the West destroyed the Soviet Union at the time. This was the cause of famine and crime in Russia in the 90s. And the same thing can happen now in Europe.
>I shit you not, if you view that it's the capitalistic arm trying to get to everywhere from west, it's not. It's much more than that. It's the world's best idea that's trying to reach everyone: to be free.
I think everyone understands that these images of a single center of capitalism are just political rhetoric. In fact, this is just an ideological device to give uneducated people a brighter picture of the enemy and control them. In fact, religion, science and ideology in the hands of any state are just a tool of control. No one believes it themselves. Here we return again to the role of religion in history.
In fact, it is the right to violate the law that is a sign of power, which suggests that some of these laws have no real value. Just as the ancient emperors forbade same-sex sex as a slave, but they themselves had sex slaves - boys. Just like Hitler talked about the purity of blood, but he had non-Aryans among his useful people. Just like Putin talked about the benefits of the vaccine, but he himself was not vaccinated. Also, politicians in the West do not act as they order their peoples.
>This is the only way pacifist can support.
Here we are talking not only about the ideology of pacifism. As I said, only those habits and behaviors that were more useful for the survival of the ancestors remain in humanity. If we try to stay away from violence, even if we are on the right side, then from a scientific point of view, we will accelerate peaceful existence for future generations.
>ATOMIROTTA - AURINKOON
Еhis sounds pretty good also. I can easily imagine a trip in a car or a walk around the city listening to this. Added to playlist.
>>undefined
Welcome to the Ukrainians!
Welcome to the Ukrainians!
>Basically, if the USSR didn't try to invade Finland post-WW2, Russia certainly won't.
It has already crossed the line in information space. It has already bought estate around the strategic spots of Finland, for potential warfare use. Besides, it's using aggressive hybrid methods to do harm for our democracy, including trying to politically mobilize extremist organizations. Putinists have also been persecuting our journals & experts inside the Finland, some of them have been convicted in court.
If Russia respects our neutrality, it doesn't really show it. One could argue that Putin does everything to get us into NATO.
>He can't afford to have sent all these people to die and gotten enormous sanctions slapped on for nothing.
Yeah I get this. But can't he in theory turn any resolution to his victory with the little help of propaganda?
>With Ukraine actively sabotaging the Minsk agreements
You might want to concider that to be the narrative Putin is telling you. Outside it has looked all the time like he's not really into peace, but instead of pushing Ukraine into war. I might add that it was the FSB who started separatist protests, and caused the movement.
"A major blockage has been Russia’s insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms."
You understand the impossibility in here? Who are you make the agreement then, if not with Russia? :D
All tho I must admit, that I personally I would've made the deal anyways - atleast now that I know where things have gone. Just to not give Putin a reason to do anything stupid, and work my way thru diplomacy.
But hey, still, Ukraine is a sovereign nation. I get that it's hard to accept another country to come and just take a piece of your own land. It's wrong, even impossible to agree with without a war. All these problems that Russia sees in his narrative, are in core about Ukraine's internal politics. In my eyes, they are mostly propaganda to justify everything for Russian people. It's been totally forgotten that these are Ukraine's internal problems, and Russia really doesn't have a say in them.
>I am fairly certain this is what went through Putin's head
Yeah I get the logic. It makes sense for the most part. Even tho I still think it's extremely wrong from Russia's side. (All tho, I realize that these things aren't exactly a thing of moral always. "National interests" - is there more psychopathic term in the dictionary, which has caused more mass scale evil in the world?"
All tho it's hard for me to see, why there couldn't have been a diplomatical solution. It is really hard to see how Russia can turn this all into it's benefit. Of course it can be that Putin's regime kinda got sucked into something that they really didn't want, but they couldn't just back off. And we might still see that very same logic happening.
I wonder, if Putin had knew all this in 2013-2014, would he have ever get mixed into things in Ukraine?
>Certainly none of this applies to Finland
You see, people don't necessarily look at things situationally, or locally. They look at the principles being used by Putin's regime. If you look at the arguments on a principal level, and how he is justifying this everything to him, it looks all much more scary.
>As time passed by, he slowly realised there's no such thing as international law, it's only a set of treaties that no one intends to keep if they become inconvenient, and which no one can enforce
Yeah I can understand the argument. This is a danger of coming too powerful. It's so easy to become corrupted and not give a fuck.
But then again, for USA to fuck things up, we shouldn't just ditch the idea of international law completely. Look, it's not everyone agrees with USA. Some view it even as uncivilized, developing democracy (or even a nation) in Europe.
That being said, tighter partnership with EU & the east could be major push back for USA. If Russia is to act like what we see now, it's only pushing us more towards USA. We can see it already happening. One could even see Ukraine being a major trap for Russia.
And what's come tour list of the murdered presidents; Saddam, Milosevic & Gaddafi, 2/3 were an actual murdering assholes begging to get wiped off the earth. I know people from Iraq, who had to flee the country being persecuted by Hussein.
Gaddafi tho.. yeah.. not exactly a good look for NATO, imho. That man did nothing to deserve his destiny.
>He also realised that Russia isn't considered an equal
I'm pretty sure they don't view anyone as equal. They find themselves to be most powerful instead.
And yes, that's a problem.
But does the wrongdoings of USA make any of the wrongdoings of Russia right? Or is it just making things much more for everyone?
What comes to Tibet & Hong Kong, isn't this about the people living inside those countries? What is the opposing argument here? They belong to the country who wants them, because they have, what, power?
I might point out, that having lived in a small country, it's much more harder to respect the arguments that bigger countries make. In the end we people are easily forgotten in the name of power.
>It's also obvious Putin didn't like the US sponsoring our dissidents and media that kept criticizing him
I might point out, that Russia has always done the same. And even worse. It actively supports & funds extremists, even neo-nazis. And even trains them militarily inside the Russia.
>Russian interference hysteria
This isn't exactly hysteria. To be honest, it might even be downplayed, so people didn't know better to panic.
>Notice I am not saying that what Putin does is honorable or lawful, I am simply explaining how we ended up here
Tbh, this is the silver lining that I see here. If Putin is to go all crazy and nuke the f*ck out of everything, maybe we see a better world and world order rising from the thought "what lead us to this?"
On the other hand, that same question might be asked also in Russia, if Russia is to fall. It's a good question to ask everywhere. Now it looks like Russia is embracing old grudges till the bitter end even. I realize, there's a feeling that world ain't fair. But does Russia really want to be equal with USA? In good and bad?
I doubt not. I hope not.
Also btw, the conception of history is very different when it comes to politics. In west we have short terms for elected leaders & parlaments. That's the metabolism system for democracy: to poo out the shitty power, for it not to get corrupted. When you are listing the short comings of west, you are also blaming the very leaders, who might've been even judged inside the west. West can learn from it's mistakes. But if old grudges ain't forgotten, but to be acted upon, it will lead to this: a zero sum game, loss-loss for everyone. I wonder how cannot we get enough psychopathic leaders to dismiss the emotions for the sake of greater good.
I will answer rest of the messages tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.
"There is no such thing as IRL, there is only AFK."
Good night, Ruskis!
"There is no such thing as IRL, there is only AFK."
Good night, Ruskis!
>You might want to concider that to be the narrative Putin is telling you. Outside it has looked all the time like he's not really into peace, but instead of pushing Ukraine into war. I might add that it was the FSB who started separatist protests, and caused the movement.
Nah, I did my research. And the media/experts I read are mostly Western-leaning.
The agreements are fairly short and you can read them for yourself - https://www.ft.com/content/21b8f98e-b2a5-11e4-b234-00144feab7de
>"A major blockage has been Russia’s insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms."
That's not the issue Ukraine had with the agreements.
The most importnat issue was that the public was simply unwilling to make any concessions. Zelensky got elected in a landslide on promises of returning LDNR peacefully, but was unable to act on it. Poroshenko (his main opponent and former president, who in fact signed the agreement; his main support group being the patriots and the nationalists; Zelensky was the pro-Russian/neutral guy) kept attacking him for trying to strike a deal with Putin, "capitulation" was the word that was thrown around a lot. More and more people starting protesting, and basically Zelensky was faced with a prospect of being ousted.
If Zelensky got his way, Poroshenko would've been done and dusted: Zelensky would've gotten a huge popularity boost for returning LDNR, and all those pro-Russian people of LDNR who would rejoin Ukraine were certainly not going to vote for Poroshenko. Also, frankly, Ukraine is a poor country, and having to rebuild and appease a war-torn region would've tanked its already weak economy.
So Zelensky had to dump the idea of negotiating with Putin and start playing the patriot in order to win back some of his supporters. And then COVID kicked in, outshadowing the reunification.
As for the actual issues that Ukraine kept talking about, it was basically about the order of some of the actions, because not everything was properly outlined in the agreements. Namely, Russia wanted to FIRST pass the laws THEN hold local elections and THEN disarm and withdraw.
Ukraine, on the other hand, wanted FIRST a complete withdrawal and THEN, some time later, hold elections, and then, maybe, pass the laws. This was unacceptable for Russia, as there would be no way to make Ukraine uphold its end of the bargain if the separatists withdrew before the elections.
To break the stalemate, Steinmeier, the German president, offered his so-called Formula (mostly taking the Russian side) https://www.rferl.org/a/what-is-the-steinmeier-formula-and-did-zelenskiy-just-capitulate-to-moscow-/30195593.html
During the talks, Zelensky officially agreed to it, but then, due to heavy internal pressure, started backing away, and then simply began sabotaging the talks, once again insisting on a complete withdrawal before holding any elections and passing any laws, kept refusing to hold talks with the LDNR officials, started floating arounds ideas of pulling out of the agreements, etc. At some time, I stopped following it, as it was turning into a clown fiesta. Obviously, due to the enormous domestic pressure, Zelensky simply couldn't uphold the agreements, even though he most likely wanted to.
As you can see from the text of the agreements, they even refused to sign the laws they explicitly had to sign before the end of 2015. Putin even agreed to a limited international peacekeeping mission as a token of good faith, but that had no effect.
>But hey, still, Ukraine is a sovereign nation. I get that it's hard to accept another country to come and just take a piece of your own land. It's wrong, even impossible to agree with without a war. All these problems that Russia sees in his narrative, are in core about Ukraine's internal politics. In my eyes, they are mostly propaganda to justify everything for Russian people. It's been totally forgotten that these are Ukraine's internal problems, and Russia really doesn't have a say in them.
Sure, but, as you can see, there was no real roadblock, the only downside to upholding the agreements was that Putin would still retain his influence in Donbass (something that he always had) - but surely getting the lands back was worth it? Surely that's better than Putin retaining his influence in Donbass and NOT getting the lands back?
>All tho I must admit, that I personally I would've made the deal anyways - atleast now that I know where things have gone.
In fact, this is one of the situations where autocracies are more efficient that democracies. Zelensky was forced to play political games with Poroshenko out of fear of being ousted, while someone dictator would've quickly resolved the matter.
It's unfortunate that you don't speak Russian, because this video doesn't seem to have proper subtitles or a translation in a Western media, but basically, the whole situation was extremely humiliating to him - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNLrZXTZsA
He ordered the troops to withdraw in order to comply with the agreements, and then the Azov Battalion arrived and said they are not going to leave their positions. He had to persuade them to leave face to face. Just to translate the most amusing bit: "I'm the president, not some loser, I'm 42 years old, I'm telling you man, put down your weapons, stop changing the subject to demonstrations. I expected to see some sort of understanding, but all I see is a guy who thinks he's talking to a simpleton" - yes, it's THAT cringey and shows just how difficult everyone was making it for Zelensky until he gave in.
Gotta go to sleep, will reply to the rest later.
Pumpsista :3
Hey you there! You Bulgarian? Sup, hows life?
I'm doing fine, would be unfair for me to complain. I'm trying to find peace with the world on the brink of doom and chaos. Why doesn't order reign? Why must there be war, when there's other options? Why can't everyone just be?
But the birds, they still do keep singing. They must be the very same three little birds that Bob Marley once sang about. Can you hear them as well?
If not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LanCLS_hIo4
>If we consider our side to be more intelligent and correct, then this mind should manifest itself in the ability to resolve such issues peacefully, especially if you speak the same language and have a common past. After all, with the help of missiles, you can always solve the problem and attacking first you deprive yourself of a moral advantage.
Only lately I've understood it more clearly, that war is the simple solution for problems. Living in a small country it's often pictured as an ultimate last solution for problems.
This also being the best argument against NATO membership. Finns shouldn't forget the possibility of getting dragged into a meaningless war. Even that we can appreciate peaceful solutions, in NATO we'd might lose that privilege, at least to some extent. It's literally like bringing USA's problems and enemies next to our borders.
But then again, is this the only way to have healthy relationship with Russia, if in the end power is the only thing that matters? In much bigger picture this is also what we are going to see in the world. Old power structures being broken, and new ones being formed. Lithosphere plates are moving. Can you hear the old world crumbling down? Is it all tears and sorrow?
>Brothers should always be able to negotiate
This is something that worries Finns btw. I wrote earlier about this also to another anon. Ukrainian foreign experts have told to ours "do not get fooled by thinking that you are any different."
Then again, it should be remembered that Ukrainians and Russians are much more close to each other. Sometimes brotherhood can manifest in violent ways.
>In addition to the Uighurs, there are also monstrous violations of women's rights in Arab countries.
I've just recently digged into this Uighur thing more. Damn it's depressing. Forced abortions, forced sterilization,.. it's a fucking genocide.
Arab countries it's a bit different thing. It's about religion. Even that we don't agree with it, the woman themselves in these regions might. It's so hard to make a change in Islamic cultures, that west is hesitant to even poke such things with a stick.
Btw, weirdly, this might be partly why Russia is getting so much targeted by the west. The hope it sees in Russia. Ruskis ain't so deranged from our values. We share them. You get what I mean?
>Given that both Putin and his inner circle had real estate and money in the West, we always believed that he was just a kind of overseer from the West. He makes sure that the barbarians do not accidentally press the red button and continue to extract gas and oil cheaply for the Western owners. Technically, it was exactly like that. Right now, America is urgently trying to beg for oil in
I'm not sure if Putin himself is, but BRICS combined might be. Tbh, if you think of it, it might be even a healthy form of development for east to unite as well under the same umbrella. Even in the form of defense union. The balance of horror. Wouldn't it ideally be in the form that if one attacks, it risks all the planet?
I might want to challenge the view a bit. From western pov Putin can be seen as leader of corrupt system. The money doesn't end up to enrich people. Where as he takes care of Russian interest when it comes to energy politics, his regime also takes care of the huge incomes not draining down on people. I'm also convinced this being the number reason why there ain't free media in Russia. He would be too easy to rip apart.
>The good news is that due to economic mechanisms and technological progress, we are able to reduce the number of victims
If nothing else, I'd be happy to see such strong reactions for any wars to come. All tho I'm not too optimistic about this. Ukraine has huge resources for doing their PR, and being an European country is a privilege.
"Funny" side notion btw: this is the first time ever I've seen video ad vouching for militarily operations (the NATO no-fly zone.) It assume it was done by Ukrainians.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xlxJOhz5b9E
This also has to do with >We understand, for example, that most people like to pose as a victim.
I think I said this already once before, but I've only lately been convinced that best background for politician is to be an actor, or an artist who knows how to affect people.
>Therefore, politics should be handled not by populists who simply follow the opinion of the crowd, but by principled people who know how to distinguish the real problems of society from the attempts of some groups to express themselves
I think that's what we are already see happening. We'll be moving towards a more fragmented world. It also shows in the democratic procedures. People cannot be satisfied with populists anymore. And tbh, I think it's a positive development. Democracy works the best the closer it gets to an individual. People can and should trust their own interest group to take care of their interests the best. Conflict & compromise.
I'd say the simple reasoning for art being leftist is the problems around us. In the free world that's how the world organizes itself. But this doesn't just go for arts, but for everything that has to do with people & politics. Just for an example, if the feminists start to get "too much" power, it will launch an opposite movement. The support for the opposition grows stronger, if the mainstream movements cause too much problems. Here again, conflict & compromise.
>The problem is not the knowledge that is taught there. It's about how this knowledge is applied in politics and business.
https://novayagazeta.ru/articles/2022/03/23/pri-v-v-putine-mne-ni-razu-ne-prikhodilos-priatatsia-po-podvalam?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=novaya&utm_campaign=pedagogicheskie-universitety-rossii-pere
This is the news I saw about it.
I'm not sure if I understood it clearly tho, is it about a ban or just some weird reinform. But anyways, for example, are the social scientists free to criticize the governments actions, and find the flaws, even publicly? Are they free to produce any kind of science they want - even gritty realistic?
>I am not sure that it will be much like awakening oneself in a new body
Disclaimer: new age-ish pseudoscientific content inc:
Could it make sense, that we all are part of same consciousness - energy - manifesting as material? The illusion of individuality - the material bodies we hold. As we die, we return to the infinity in some form.
In theory this could mean that we all are same entity. And always have been. Everything that exists around us: it's all us.
Btw, I've thought if it comes possible to create human like AI, or store our identity to computer. Would it in theory prove if there is soul (or if the fact turns out that we _cannot_ copy the human mind without a soul?) Is there a soul to code in a first place? If we can code a human mind, or store it to a program like AI, will it act different than the original one (which might have soul?)
Think of the upcoming crises for religions in explaining such things. Or who knows: the uprising? If only I'd live long enough to see 'em.
>After all, unification means a willingness to share both good and bad. And there are many problematic countries in these unions, which have enough problems of their own. And so countries like Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and others. Now they cannot find a common language about the strategy of the fight against Putin.
Yup. And it's not exactly "easy" for us who are being relatively problem free as a country. Actually us Finns, we represent the part of the EU that pays more than gets from EU, at least for now (there has been some talk of supporting the eastern-European countries because of recent actions, idk if that leads anywhere tho.) Btw: There exists a challenge made by one right-wing populist party's economist (Juhani Huopainen): prove a net benefit of EU for Finns, and you win 1000€. :D Apparently the challenge has been going for years, and it's still open.
It's not exactly easy to explain to voters, why we must pay higher taxes so people from abroads could do better - when there is single guarantees about them getting their shit together. Corona actually highlighted this as there was big mutual EU loans taken. But as I've said, Putin did a huge PR-favour for EU. Now everyone understands the sometimes so abstract concept of solidarity better. The weakest links hold the greatest risks. In this sense equality might stand even for power politics.
>Putin knows this for sure, because that's how the West destroyed the Soviet Union at the time
Is this the mainstream narrative btw? That the west destroyed CCCP?
And yeah, in the long term, any union has to satisfy the needs of all of it's members. Otherwise it's a doomed idea for them. Understandably, some also argue that the weakest links should be just kicked of the EU. Or that they shouldn't have been let in in the first place.
Many in the EU find it to be succesful project so far. I might point out that it has evolved to this from a far. It's main purpose was to prevent upcoming wars in Europe. I think it has hold to that promise pretty well.
>Also, politicians in the West do not act as they order their peoples.
It should be noted, that here leaders can't really act against the will of people or they'll eventually lose power. And this is also very complicated matter. You see, I've often viewed myself some of the rhetorics of western leaders really hypocritical. When talking to Ruskis, some of it have become even more clear. But there's other side to it. Some of the rhetorics look actually less hypocritical (for example all the talk about free media, democracy, human rights.) They actually feel more like a real talk after understanding better what the lack of such things might mean for people.
Now let me give you an another example. Think of the Uigurs, and USA placing sanctions on China because of human rights. The real reasoning here might be weakening China in the name of economic war, not the human rights. But is it hypocracy, or win-win situation with the voters? This same can be applied to western leader's speeches about Russia.
Also, the media cannot be exactly controlled in west. This places huge pressures on politicians. If they don't act on such things what's happening in Ukraine, or in China, they'll get fucked. In democracy the people ideally control the leaders. When thinking of western politics, you should focus on looking at the people, not just the leaders.
I'm not saying that we wouldn't have shitty leaders who don't give af about people. Or that we wouldn't have dysfunctional democracies in the west. We do. The capitalists being the worst possible example, the ones who can buy power. But in democracy there are limits to the actions, and for not acting, for all the leaders. There's also new weapons being developed all the time against the elite. Think of the cancel culture for example, or voting with your consuming habits.
My point here is to point out that the logic here is more like that the leaders have to listen to us, or we will find someone else who will. And they know this.
>I think everyone understands that these images of a single center of capitalism are just political rhetoric
It is for the most part. But there's also exceptions. Think of Google for example. I've been thinking about their motto alot lately: "Don't be evil."
Having said that, often times the noble and predatory motivations co-exist. This goes for individuals also. If the predatory motivations are not conscious, they might end up ruling the behavior more. Does the west have the capacity to look in the mirror in the most brutally honest of ways?
I sure do hope so.
How much Winter War is forced among your countrymen? Is that one of staples of Finnish patriot, to be ready for an inevitable invasion from Russia, and to be ready to kill as many Russians as possible? Are you proud of your K/D ratio, how much it mentioned in your folk tales?
Continuing my reply.
>Yeah I get this. But can't he in theory turn any resolution to his victory with the little help of propaganda?
Any propaganda machine has its limits. Russia is not North Korea, even our patriots freely criticize "the government", just not Putin. People complain all the time about our corruption, low salaries, shit healthcare, oil dependency, immigration, etc, but this is blamed on "the government", and they take great pride in what Putin does on the foreign front. Basically, Putin's policy is "Make Russia great again", people are more willing to accept mediocre quality of life if they once again feel their country is a force to be reckoned with.
Just watch the MASSIVE outrage caused by yesterday's talks, this is a heavily patriotic site: https://topwar.ru/194145-minoborony-sokraschaet-boevye-dejstvija-na-kievskom-i-chernigovskom-napravlenijah.html
And these talks are ridiculous. Just think:
1. Ukraine gets security assurances from world powers: basically joining NATO ASAP, even though before the war Ukraine had no hopes of joining NATO in the near future. Ukraine tries to spin this as a concession to Russia, but it is in fact a major concession to Ukraine
2. Russia agrees to start negotiating LDNR - haven't we spent the last 8 years discussing that, to no avail? Neither us nor them are willing to budge, and one of the main reasons for this war is that neither us nor them were satisfied with status quo.
3. Russia agrees to start negotiating Crimea - lol what? It's a done deal (like I said, even the most democratic leader will never return Crimea, it's a political suicide), and its recognition is one of the main things Putin wanted to achieve as a result of the war
4. Ukraine agrees to not attack LDNR/Crimea for at least 15 years - well no shit, that's about the time it will take them to recover from this war. And what is they break it, who will punish them, the US? Lol.
5. Russia gives up its demands for the revocation of the language law, at least for now.
6. Anything Ukraine agrees to in the peace treaty will be subject to a referendum, and Ukraine explicitly states there will be no referendum until Russia withdraws, meaning hooray welcome back the main roadblock of the Minsk agreements, long time no see
7. All this on top of most of their population hating us now, meaning if they were unwilling to uphold their agreements, they certainly won't uphold anything this time either, unless forced by the West
8. No lifting of the sanctions (although this is totally expected, many sanctions are likely to remain even after a peace treaty is signed)
There's no way Putin can spin that not that he wants to. If he signs that, he's done. Unfortunately, Ukraine is the prisoner of its own propaganda, too: Zelensky can't afford to give up on Crimea even if he wants to (I'm dead certain he'd gladly cede it), the public will never allow him to.
In other words, after over a month, Ukraine is still unwilling to make ANY concessions, meaning they're the reason why the talks stall. Once again, you don't have to support Putin to agree that in any war, the losing side HAS to make at least some concessions. If they don't, they either prolong their suffering or hope that their counteroffensive will eventually push the enemy back to the pre-war border (unrealistic: Ukrainian air force is pretty much non-existing except for the drones; and if need be, Putin can send thousands upon thousands of new troops). Pretty much the whole reason independent Ukraine even exists is because we agreed to that as a result of losing WW1 (see the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk).
But instead, Ukraine is trying to force Russia to make concessions. How can that be a viable negotiations strategy? Modern warfare is urban warfare, there's no other way of capturing cities other than reducing them to ruins. What good will that bring to anyone? The longer the war continues, the more likely Russia is to up its demands.
>I wonder, if Putin had knew all this in 2013-2014, would he have ever get mixed into things in Ukraine?
I'm certain if he knew that, he would've went all in. Ukrainians were pretty much giving up without a fight in 2014, and many of them were heavily pro-Russian.
>Look, it's not everyone agrees with USA. Some view it even as uncivilized, developing democracy (or even a nation) in Europe.
Sure, but you can do nothing about that. They always get their way. They ignored Germany, France and Canada when invading Iraq. They ignored the entire Europe when pulling out of the Iran deal; Europe tried to protest and remain in the deal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_in_Support_of_Trade_Exchanges - but it was futile, everyone was scared of the sanctions. They ignored everyone when imposing sanctions on China. Macron was extremely frustrated over the Australian submarine deal, even recalled French ambassadors from the US in protest, but what could he do? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/france-seeks-tangible-actions-from-australia-after-submarines-row
The US enforces its will upon everyone and is the sole judge of what's right and what's not.
>You see, people don't necessarily look at things situationally, or locally. They look at the principles being used by Putin's regime. If you look at the arguments on a principal level, and how he is justifying this everything to him, it looks all much more scary.
But in fact, if you ignore the whole FUD of those propagating the Putin Menace, the only thing Putin ever wanted from his allies is not hosting the US weapons and not being overtly hostile to Russia. "Not being overtly hostile" means exactly that - you can uphold the US sanctions, you don't have to approve of what Russia does, you can trade with the West, you can push ethnic Russians out of your political system. Unlike China, who requires everyone to recognize Taiwan as its province, Russia doesn't even require anyone to recognize Crimea, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Abkhazia_and_South_Ossetia (also please read the "Comparisons with Kosovo" paragraph). No one forces Armenia to recognize Crimea; the only reason it did so is because it itself occupied a part of Azerbaijan.
If you want to know Russia's modus operandi within its sphere of influence, you should look at the Asian post-Soviet states. It doesn't try to annex anyone and doesn't try to oust their rulers, democratic or not. It tries to negotiate peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan; it didn't try to oust the new Armenian president who came to power as a result of a popular revolt and was mildly anti-Russian. It has no qualms with Kazakhstan transitioning to a Latin-bases script or pushing Russians out of its political system (Kazakhstan is ~25% Russians and Ukrainians), or Azerbaijan competing with Russia on European gas market. It didn't oppose to a series of popular revolts in Kyrgyzstan. It helps Uzbekistan and Tajikistan to strengthen their Afghanistan borders (no, no occupation involved). It never meddles in their affairs, doesn't care who comes to power, doesn't try to annex anything, doesn't make demands. We did send up our troops to help put down the Kazakhstani protests, but 1. That was on the orders of their ruler (definitely wouldn't call him a dictator) 2. They ended up being just for show & to reassure Kazakhstani elites not to try ousting him; the crackdown was done by Kazakhstan's own police 3. Recalled them after a few days.
The only exception to this is Ukraine. But Ukraine is exactly this - an exception, not the rule. There are many reasons why Ukraine is special, and I've already listed them: Kiev being the first Russian city, Ukrainians barely disgintuishable from Russians, sunk costs fallacy, etcetera etcetera. Nothing of the sort applies to Finns (you guys speak some alien language) or the Muslim countries of Central Asia.
>If Russia is to act like what we see now, it's only pushing us more towards USA. We can see it already happening. One could even see Ukraine being a major trap for Russia.
Yes, and this is extremely unfortunate. No matter the final outcome, this whole war is a net loss for Russia, that's for sure.
I will comment on the rest a bit later.
>Yeah I get this. But can't he in theory turn any resolution to his victory with the little help of propaganda?
Any propaganda machine has its limits. Russia is not North Korea, even our patriots freely criticize "the government", just not Putin. People complain all the time about our corruption, low salaries, shit healthcare, oil dependency, immigration, etc, but this is blamed on "the government", and they take great pride in what Putin does on the foreign front. Basically, Putin's policy is "Make Russia great again", people are more willing to accept mediocre quality of life if they once again feel their country is a force to be reckoned with.
Just watch the MASSIVE outrage caused by yesterday's talks, this is a heavily patriotic site: https://topwar.ru/194145-minoborony-sokraschaet-boevye-dejstvija-na-kievskom-i-chernigovskom-napravlenijah.html
And these talks are ridiculous. Just think:
1. Ukraine gets security assurances from world powers: basically joining NATO ASAP, even though before the war Ukraine had no hopes of joining NATO in the near future. Ukraine tries to spin this as a concession to Russia, but it is in fact a major concession to Ukraine
2. Russia agrees to start negotiating LDNR - haven't we spent the last 8 years discussing that, to no avail? Neither us nor them are willing to budge, and one of the main reasons for this war is that neither us nor them were satisfied with status quo.
3. Russia agrees to start negotiating Crimea - lol what? It's a done deal (like I said, even the most democratic leader will never return Crimea, it's a political suicide), and its recognition is one of the main things Putin wanted to achieve as a result of the war
4. Ukraine agrees to not attack LDNR/Crimea for at least 15 years - well no shit, that's about the time it will take them to recover from this war. And what is they break it, who will punish them, the US? Lol.
5. Russia gives up its demands for the revocation of the language law, at least for now.
6. Anything Ukraine agrees to in the peace treaty will be subject to a referendum, and Ukraine explicitly states there will be no referendum until Russia withdraws, meaning hooray welcome back the main roadblock of the Minsk agreements, long time no see
7. All this on top of most of their population hating us now, meaning if they were unwilling to uphold their agreements, they certainly won't uphold anything this time either, unless forced by the West
8. No lifting of the sanctions (although this is totally expected, many sanctions are likely to remain even after a peace treaty is signed)
There's no way Putin can spin that not that he wants to. If he signs that, he's done. Unfortunately, Ukraine is the prisoner of its own propaganda, too: Zelensky can't afford to give up on Crimea even if he wants to (I'm dead certain he'd gladly cede it), the public will never allow him to.
In other words, after over a month, Ukraine is still unwilling to make ANY concessions, meaning they're the reason why the talks stall. Once again, you don't have to support Putin to agree that in any war, the losing side HAS to make at least some concessions. If they don't, they either prolong their suffering or hope that their counteroffensive will eventually push the enemy back to the pre-war border (unrealistic: Ukrainian air force is pretty much non-existing except for the drones; and if need be, Putin can send thousands upon thousands of new troops). Pretty much the whole reason independent Ukraine even exists is because we agreed to that as a result of losing WW1 (see the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk).
But instead, Ukraine is trying to force Russia to make concessions. How can that be a viable negotiations strategy? Modern warfare is urban warfare, there's no other way of capturing cities other than reducing them to ruins. What good will that bring to anyone? The longer the war continues, the more likely Russia is to up its demands.
>I wonder, if Putin had knew all this in 2013-2014, would he have ever get mixed into things in Ukraine?
I'm certain if he knew that, he would've went all in. Ukrainians were pretty much giving up without a fight in 2014, and many of them were heavily pro-Russian.
>Look, it's not everyone agrees with USA. Some view it even as uncivilized, developing democracy (or even a nation) in Europe.
Sure, but you can do nothing about that. They always get their way. They ignored Germany, France and Canada when invading Iraq. They ignored the entire Europe when pulling out of the Iran deal; Europe tried to protest and remain in the deal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_in_Support_of_Trade_Exchanges - but it was futile, everyone was scared of the sanctions. They ignored everyone when imposing sanctions on China. Macron was extremely frustrated over the Australian submarine deal, even recalled French ambassadors from the US in protest, but what could he do? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/france-seeks-tangible-actions-from-australia-after-submarines-row
The US enforces its will upon everyone and is the sole judge of what's right and what's not.
>You see, people don't necessarily look at things situationally, or locally. They look at the principles being used by Putin's regime. If you look at the arguments on a principal level, and how he is justifying this everything to him, it looks all much more scary.
But in fact, if you ignore the whole FUD of those propagating the Putin Menace, the only thing Putin ever wanted from his allies is not hosting the US weapons and not being overtly hostile to Russia. "Not being overtly hostile" means exactly that - you can uphold the US sanctions, you don't have to approve of what Russia does, you can trade with the West, you can push ethnic Russians out of your political system. Unlike China, who requires everyone to recognize Taiwan as its province, Russia doesn't even require anyone to recognize Crimea, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Abkhazia_and_South_Ossetia (also please read the "Comparisons with Kosovo" paragraph). No one forces Armenia to recognize Crimea; the only reason it did so is because it itself occupied a part of Azerbaijan.
If you want to know Russia's modus operandi within its sphere of influence, you should look at the Asian post-Soviet states. It doesn't try to annex anyone and doesn't try to oust their rulers, democratic or not. It tries to negotiate peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan; it didn't try to oust the new Armenian president who came to power as a result of a popular revolt and was mildly anti-Russian. It has no qualms with Kazakhstan transitioning to a Latin-bases script or pushing Russians out of its political system (Kazakhstan is ~25% Russians and Ukrainians), or Azerbaijan competing with Russia on European gas market. It didn't oppose to a series of popular revolts in Kyrgyzstan. It helps Uzbekistan and Tajikistan to strengthen their Afghanistan borders (no, no occupation involved). It never meddles in their affairs, doesn't care who comes to power, doesn't try to annex anything, doesn't make demands. We did send up our troops to help put down the Kazakhstani protests, but 1. That was on the orders of their ruler (definitely wouldn't call him a dictator) 2. They ended up being just for show & to reassure Kazakhstani elites not to try ousting him; the crackdown was done by Kazakhstan's own police 3. Recalled them after a few days.
The only exception to this is Ukraine. But Ukraine is exactly this - an exception, not the rule. There are many reasons why Ukraine is special, and I've already listed them: Kiev being the first Russian city, Ukrainians barely disgintuishable from Russians, sunk costs fallacy, etcetera etcetera. Nothing of the sort applies to Finns (you guys speak some alien language) or the Muslim countries of Central Asia.
>If Russia is to act like what we see now, it's only pushing us more towards USA. We can see it already happening. One could even see Ukraine being a major trap for Russia.
Yes, and this is extremely unfortunate. No matter the final outcome, this whole war is a net loss for Russia, that's for sure.
I will comment on the rest a bit later.
I know the Minsk agreements, at least on surface. Not claiming to be an expert on the issue tho, so I'm more than willing to hear outside views of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements
"US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said on 13 February that the Russian Armed Forces had actively deployed around Debaltseve to assist the separatists in forcing out Ukrainian troops prior to the start of the ceasefire, the 15 February. Russia denied this, and Russian government spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that Russia could not assist in the implementation of Minsk II because it was "not a participant" in the conflict."
Anyways, my understanding is that it was somewhat doomed deal. You can't just munch a part of a sovereign country and expect it to be okay with it. Even if the leaders would want it, they are bound by the will of people.
>once again insisting on a complete withdrawal before holding any elections and passing any laws
This could also make sense in the context of giving Ukraine a feeling of full sovereignty. Gunboat diplomacy might work on the leaders, but people is a whole lot of different thing. You can compare this to 1939 CCCP-Finland case. It's not just that simple. One could even argue that either the Russian leaders are bad at understanding democracy, or then they never wanted to find a solution.
>Surely that's better than Putin retaining his influence in Donbass and NOT getting the lands back?
And look, it's even me for easy to say that I would prolly tried out the deal. But even I understand that it's not up to me. Sovereign nations have their sovereign will. The context also here being Ukraine just having done western minded uprising, and wanting to get out of Russian influences. I guess this was the roadblock in the end.
>autocracies are more efficient that democracies
That's true, and it goes for any group phenomenons. To put it simply: Authoritarian leadership = efficient decision making, democracy = happy group members.
And yeah, I get that it must've been not exactly easy for Zelensky. He wasn't exactly a pro when it comes to politics, he was dropped straight into acid test. And remember, war is a beast. Once it's provoked, it's hard to control. This was the same with Finland in 1945. There were people who would've been ready to fight till bitter end. That could've easily made up for civil war inside the Ukraine. Another example: Versailles treaty. If the people's will was heard, who knows, maybe world could've prevented WW2.
Putin himself criticizes the government all the time. Anons of Dvach also are free to criticize the government and Putin.
Meanwhile, this is what happens if you criticize the government in the so-called 'free world'. Horsemen to trample, tear gas to irritate lungs, water canons to injure and permanently blind. None of these are used in Russia, but on Twitter they always say Russia is the worst and people get 'disappeared' here.
Inb4 wHaTaBoUtIsM, I've never said the environment in Russia is ideal for politically active people. Just pointing out your prejudice.
Meanwhile, this is what happens if you criticize the government in the so-called 'free world'. Horsemen to trample, tear gas to irritate lungs, water canons to injure and permanently blind. None of these are used in Russia, but on Twitter they always say Russia is the worst and people get 'disappeared' here.
Inb4 wHaTaBoUtIsM, I've never said the environment in Russia is ideal for politically active people. Just pointing out your prejudice.
> this is what happens
The picture got lost in the process of posting for some reason. A man loses his eye after a water cannon hist him, yellow vests, France.
The picture got lost in the process of posting for some reason. A man loses his eye after a water cannon hist him, yellow vests, France.
>How much Winter War is forced among your countrymen? Is that one of staples of Finnish patriot
Well, first of all the context for is that we had a civil war couple decades before, which had ripped us apart. Common enemy unified the people. We talk about it as a 'Spirit of Winter war.' Besides that, after the wars, we got to keep our independence, where as many countries had to be part of CCCP. From this perspect the war is remembered as something positive, even tho it costs us a lot.
>to be ready for an inevitable invasion from Russia, and to be ready to kill as many Russians as possible?
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Suomen_historian_sodista
I'm sorry for not finding a translated one, but have a look if you will.
That's list of Finnish wars. We've had our fair share of conflicts with Russia. We have a words for the invader Russians, "ryssä", or "vainolainen", the persecutor. These words contains emotional traumas and hatred coming back from hundreds of years. I might remind that these words do not represent peaceful Russians. If a Finn is to use such a word in the company of a Russian, I would compare it to using the word "nigger" in the presence of a black man. Not exactly polite, and any civilized Finn wouldn't ever do that.
What do you think, is it just a matter of time for another mad man rising in power in Russia? Your guess might be as good as mine. The guess is what defines stage of preparation. One could say, that if we believed in eternal peace, we wouldn't have spend so much resources on our army.
Needless to say, no one wants war, but instead a good relations with Russia. Everyone realizes that if we face Russia, we'll prolly lose. Being prepared to fight till the end, even against unsurmountable odds is what defines our culture, even outside the war. The term "sisu" is defined by not giving up even when you are facing shitty odds. When it comes will to defend, our country is studied to be nr. 1 in the Europe, specifically against "overwhelming enemy."
If you want peace, you have to be prepared for a war. Cliche, I know, but our best and only defense is to be ready to fight an endless guerilla war till the last man.
>Are you proud of your K/D ratio, how much it mentioned in your folk tales?
Soviet army was shit. I remember in school it being a subject how did it all happen. Stalin's purges had hit the commanders. Soviets also used old tactics, and weren't prepared. Men had a poor morale, they didn't know what they were fighting for. I could imagine the army to have been corrupted af as well.
We are proud of our ancestors, yes. I would say I'm personally more proud about the stories involved, especially about individual soldiers. But still, the war was a huge catastrophe for us. We've heard the stories of our grandfathers and grandmas. And trust me, those stories were full of grief. Most men came back from the headlines as broken, never to be the same again. The meaning of PSTD and such was only later recognized properly.
On a funny side note: one of the most positive stories I remember hearing from my grandfather was about soviet prisoner of war, who had surrendered & been placed to work in Finnish farm. He was apparently happy to not have to fight, and got well along with the Finns. Besides this I remember him telling stories about soviet bombers who dropped their bombs to empty forest, to not have to kill civilians. The war is remembered as mindlessness, so it brought Finns some hope to see that not all Ruskis were brainwashed mad men.
The forcing of K/D ratio is done by simpleton teenagers mostly, I'd guess. It's easy to forget that we are a small nation. Even tho in relation to soviet we didn't lose many men, for our small nation it was alot. There's villages who lost all of their boys.
Fuck war.
Did this answer to your question?
Well, first of all the context for is that we had a civil war couple decades before, which had ripped us apart. Common enemy unified the people. We talk about it as a 'Spirit of Winter war.' Besides that, after the wars, we got to keep our independence, where as many countries had to be part of CCCP. From this perspect the war is remembered as something positive, even tho it costs us a lot.
>to be ready for an inevitable invasion from Russia, and to be ready to kill as many Russians as possible?
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Suomen_historian_sodista
I'm sorry for not finding a translated one, but have a look if you will.
That's list of Finnish wars. We've had our fair share of conflicts with Russia. We have a words for the invader Russians, "ryssä", or "vainolainen", the persecutor. These words contains emotional traumas and hatred coming back from hundreds of years. I might remind that these words do not represent peaceful Russians. If a Finn is to use such a word in the company of a Russian, I would compare it to using the word "nigger" in the presence of a black man. Not exactly polite, and any civilized Finn wouldn't ever do that.
What do you think, is it just a matter of time for another mad man rising in power in Russia? Your guess might be as good as mine. The guess is what defines stage of preparation. One could say, that if we believed in eternal peace, we wouldn't have spend so much resources on our army.
Needless to say, no one wants war, but instead a good relations with Russia. Everyone realizes that if we face Russia, we'll prolly lose. Being prepared to fight till the end, even against unsurmountable odds is what defines our culture, even outside the war. The term "sisu" is defined by not giving up even when you are facing shitty odds. When it comes will to defend, our country is studied to be nr. 1 in the Europe, specifically against "overwhelming enemy."
If you want peace, you have to be prepared for a war. Cliche, I know, but our best and only defense is to be ready to fight an endless guerilla war till the last man.
>Are you proud of your K/D ratio, how much it mentioned in your folk tales?
Soviet army was shit. I remember in school it being a subject how did it all happen. Stalin's purges had hit the commanders. Soviets also used old tactics, and weren't prepared. Men had a poor morale, they didn't know what they were fighting for. I could imagine the army to have been corrupted af as well.
We are proud of our ancestors, yes. I would say I'm personally more proud about the stories involved, especially about individual soldiers. But still, the war was a huge catastrophe for us. We've heard the stories of our grandfathers and grandmas. And trust me, those stories were full of grief. Most men came back from the headlines as broken, never to be the same again. The meaning of PSTD and such was only later recognized properly.
On a funny side note: one of the most positive stories I remember hearing from my grandfather was about soviet prisoner of war, who had surrendered & been placed to work in Finnish farm. He was apparently happy to not have to fight, and got well along with the Finns. Besides this I remember him telling stories about soviet bombers who dropped their bombs to empty forest, to not have to kill civilians. The war is remembered as mindlessness, so it brought Finns some hope to see that not all Ruskis were brainwashed mad men.
The forcing of K/D ratio is done by simpleton teenagers mostly, I'd guess. It's easy to forget that we are a small nation. Even tho in relation to soviet we didn't lose many men, for our small nation it was alot. There's villages who lost all of their boys.
Fuck war.
Did this answer to your question?
Why do you consider it mindless? They wished to provide safety for the city of 3 million people. (I was surprised to learn Leningrad and Finland had the same number of people living there.) Later events showed they were insightful. I believe human lives worth more than the concept of territorial integrity.
I heard they removed that Mannerheim memorial: people couldn't accept that someone who took part in the siege of their city, that tragedy, was given such honor.
Good answer, one I was looking for, because honestly, It was kinda getting hopeless, because I only saw that kind of Finns, I guess
>simpleton teenagers mostly
>and any civilized Finn wouldn't ever do that
Good reminder that not every Finn is bigoted hater. And hopefully, our recent "moves" are not going to tip the scales into another extreme.
I always liked Finns, and it was heartbreaking seeing hatred from them, albeit for good reason, but still, hatred, which to me, seemed deeply rooted into national identity, and that hatred is not one that goes away or could be reasoned with.
Some Finns actually enjoy dead Russians.
Join NATO and quickly send your army into Ukraine, I think Huilo will be surprised.
Best regards, hope you won't join nato so we won't need to demilitarize you :3
passing by
What comes to the comment section, how can you know that those are not Kreml's trolls? Or how do you view the main narratives of Kreml troll's pointed at Russian audience at the very moment?
I mean, in western media no body really believes in Putin being serious about the peace talks in the first place. Doesn't it make sense for him to be pushing the buttons of people in that direction?
Besides if the voice of anti-war protestors are suppressed, isn't that exactly what you could expect to hear? It gives Putin's free hands to act.
>the losing side HAS to make at least some concessions
True, but is the Ukraine really losing, yet? I mean, it doesn't necessarily look too good for Russia atm. Of course Russia will win in the end - I'm not to debate that - if it spends enough resources. But that's kinda the very strategy against superior enemy: to make the war as costly as possible for the invaders.
>The longer the war continues, the more likely Russia is to up its demands.
I realize this. No body wins here. You can compare this to 1939-1945 Soviet-Finnish war if you will. In the end, Stalin gots his piece of land. Was it really worth it?
I might also point out, that Ukrainians have been studied to have top #2 willingness to fight against overwhelming of all European countries. And their morale seems to be only getting higher. War is a beast that no one controls. As you've realized, it might be really hard for Zelensky to accept anything which reminds a "defeat" for the people. This might end up being really destructive cycle. The harder Ukrainians get beated, the more they want revenge. If they get successess, they'll want to push for more. This same logic goes for Russian soldiers, except for the fact that their morale isn't probably nowhere as good. What's makes their fight right?
At the same time, I might remind that there would've always existed the possibility of respecting Ukraine's sovereignty, and encouraging partnership. No one had to die. This is totally unnecessary sacrifice for the Russia. And this is not good either, because now the greater the sacrifice, the greater the need to show something bigger as victory. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
>Sure, but you can do nothing about that. They always get their way.
True, and not true. After all, USA's politics is kinda far away subject from us. From Finnish perspective at least, none of our business, really. They've never brought us any problems so far. Except for Justin Bieber once invading our country.
What comes to USA-Russo relations, I think most of the world would prolly agree with me, if I were to say that it would be refreshing to see the relations being started from the fresh table. It might be disgustingly naive thought, but it has to happen sooner or later, to get out of the zero-sum game- / loss-for-everyone- cycle. Worst case scenario: two idiots keep dragging the whole world in their shit.
>There are many reasons why Ukraine is special
>Nothing of the sort applies to Finns
Look. Even if I were to understand this all (and I actually do, and it brings me some comfort), Finns in general think very differently. We do see Russia having all these arguments. But none of them really make justice for what Ukraine is going thru today - they at best sound like an excuse to justify vain power politics (looking from the perspective of much smaller nation; we've never used power in a similar way against any country. From our perspective it's simply put wrong.) You have to also think about the principles, to understand how we view things. What principles were broken, when Russia attacked Ukraine? Also, when you think of the sphere of Russia's influence, we really don't think such thinking should exist upon sovereign states. It's all bullshit to us, to be frank. And I don't say this to offend you, but to point out how my people thinks.
And I have to point out: some of these principles have already been broken towards our country also. It is a direct insult towards our sovereignty. NATO ain't an excuse, as we have a long standing idea of neutrality in defense politics: for decades our polls showed that we've been NATO-negative. Only after Putin started showing symptoms, the opinion shifted dramatically.
>Why do you consider it mindless?
We are a sovereign, independent nation. From our perspective, the war starts when someone crosses the border. There is only one country demanding safety aggressively at the expense of others: Russia/(then CCCP.)
Besides that, Stalin knew very well, that giving those lands would make us country practically undefendable.
Now think of explaining that to voters. Also, just like in Ukraine, I think most of our leaders thought that he'd know better than to start a war.
>I heard they removed that Mannerheim memorial
Not according to my knowledge? Some radical-leftists have suggested such things, but not going to happen ever, if I were to guess. Mannerheim is viewed pretty much like savior of our country.
Commies be still mad tho, because Mannerheim ruled the winning side of a civil war. And he owned the "enemies" (which for the most part were our own people.) This is what makes him kinda conflicted person. We still carry some of the civil war trauma.
What do you want to know from me?
How do the western media generally show the situation?
Интересно, сколько чурка заплатил этому хуесосу, чтоб он с пасскода заюзав впн строил из себя иностранца...
Umm, yes. I mean. The Finnish internet humor can be kinda hard to understand. Most of them don't mean anything bad. You know, in IRL we are kinda silent and serious people. But there is this childish and playful part to us, which manifests in internet in the most absurd of ways. And yes, the most hateful of psychopaths & sadists gather to imageboards also. Please just remember, that in IRL things look _very_ different than how Finns act in the internet. I've seen practically 0 russohate IRL (being centered directly at Russian people.)
And look. We are a small country. We live behind the God's back in the middle of forest and snow. We think we are forgotten, and every time Finland is being mentioned abroads, we gather to market squares and party. Not even joking. We even have this saying "Torilla tavataan" = "We'll meet at the market place." As the Finland is mentioned, we immediately put our clothes on, grab a bottle of Koskenkorva, and run to nearest market square just to rip the clothes of.
What does this have to do with anything? Well, Finland is often mentioned because of Winter War. Now it has turned into self-reinforcing cycle of forcing all things related to Winter War. It gives us the feeling of not being totally forgotten. Think of us winning in ice-hockey finals. It's a full blown national mass psychosis.
>Good reminder that not every Finn is bigoted hater.
Lol. Majority of us ain't. Actually it's been in the headlines lately, that Putin's regime is going to false flag shit, just to make Ruski's think that we hate you. We have Russian minority, and I know some myself. Is it wrong to say I think they are the best Russian minority to exist?
All tho, I must admit, the russophobia has kinda risen it's head. Most of it's focused towards Putin tho. It's nothing personal against Russian people tho, just the most fierce of putinists. As I've been explaining, there's some acts that Russia has done in the past decades, which we find as acts of aggression.
Current situation is bullshit. Why can't all just be frens?
I hope that also, so I don't have to fight an endless guerilla war.
I'd be surprised to see Finns ever partaking in foreign wars. It's just not for us, we are busy dealing with depression. ._.
Everyone here is shocked by how reckless this step was on Putin's part. Especially considering that the troops are bogged down
Sup? How's life?
Pretty much like this: Civilians getting owned. Russians getting owned. Ukrainians getting owned. Russian getting owned some more. Russia lying. Russia lying again. Civilians getting owned in more brutal way. Speculating with mental health of Putin.
If you want to take a peek: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/ (All tho I'd say that's necessarily not the most objective of forums.)
I know some people IRL who have had to stop themselves from reading news, because of too much negativity in the air right now.
The time of great upheavals has coming
Hey, have you heard? Our main fascist Strelkov/Girkin is directly comparing the situation in Ukraine with the Winter War.
Will Finland join NATO?
Hey. I haven't tbh. What did he say exactly?
I've thought sometimes, that this is the case for everyone of Russia's neighbors. If you want to be free, you have to be ready to fight for it. Our president S. Niinistö has been known for this saying "Cossack takes everything, what's loosely bound." (Idk if he's citating some writer or what.)
Idk. Really hard to say for sure at this point. All tho I wouldn't be too surprised if we do.
Would you if you were us?
>been living in SPb for 9 years
>never visit Finland
>have good sleep while listening to finland radio near Vybord
>love gondola
>support operation
>never visit Finland
>have good sleep while listening to finland radio near Vybord
>love gondola
>support operation
Check out this post - translation in the top comment.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/ts6meq/girkin_who_was_instrumental_in_annexing_crimea/
I can understand some of the associations with Winter war.
If I were to guess, much of the blame goes to cabinet thinking and possible corruption of army. If I remember correct, the army chief of general staff was fired in the early stages of war. This is pure speculation, but could that have been the point of realization about true state of Russian army's state?
Also what comes to cabinet thinking, there might've been a lot of shitty intelligence involved. All tho this is hard for me to believe that it was all just big mistake. Even an average person could've predicted that it's a no-go to attack Ukraine in this manner, I find it baffling. Defenders have such a upper hand, and Ukrainians have high morale. Besides that NATO has apparently trained & armed the Ukrainians with gear suitable for defending & guerilla warfare. This combined with the fact that it might not be easy to find a reason to fight as Russian soldier could create a catastrophe. Besides, I'm not sure why did they want to launch an attack when there's apparently alot of mud etc., and the heavy vehicles have to go by the roads, being easy to lead into traps.
Second option what I've been thinking of, is that Putin's regime wants to play weak and fool. Why? Idk. Maybe to try to lure NATO to a trap and make it look like aggressor? To see if BRICS countries are trustworthy allies? To somehow find out if the inner circle is trustworthy and loyal?
Man idk. I'm not claiming to be an expert in these issues. What's your thoughts?
I'll read your answer by the morning, gn!
How's life in Vyborg?
>Makes it two of us to love Gondola
Good night Ruskis!
I see, so it also meant less safety for Finland. Sounds obvious now when you said this.
The memorial they removed was in Saint Petersburg. It got vandalized, and they moved it to a museum. It is a bronze thing they put on an inner wall of a house.
They were ready to do little concessions, but not with the expense of ours. Look at the picture, the blue line were suggested for soviet leaders.
"Based on the archives of the Russian state during the Winter War [39], the Russian historian Pavel Aptekar states that "the first detailed war plan for the Finnish war was drawn up as early as the end of March and the beginning of April". Thus, according to the Aptekar, the attack had already been decided earlier, even though peace talks seemingly took place."
I think it might've been already obvious for our leaders that the negotiations were bullshit in the first place. In my view Stalin just wanted war with us, and needed an excuse to do it.
I am apologizing for the late reply, I was too busy these days. I did not lost=)
>such as amish-culture?
Yes, smth like this. It means really hard work every day.
However, sometimes our officials speak smth like "let`s give every person who wants a place for a estate".
Look, I still consider this as a very good dream. Currently the world economy is highly specialized, so, it is incredibly difficult to sent it back to 19th century with independent villages and so on. Initially, it could be very attractive, especially if you are not familiar well enough with such kind of labour and lifestyle, but in practice it will turn into nightmare as most of people are not prepared to adandon their habits, lifestyle and comfort.
>Do you think that most find the narrative as negative?
It is the thing to give promises and give them again and again. It is just an istrument of propaganda for better control. And it have been working for the decades.
A very frequent reaction to this narrative is irritation as people know that this is another promise and people got tired of this.
But I do not find it dangerous - it is just a national trait that is exploited again.
>the natural resources and spread the incomes fairly
Yes, this the point could not be forgiven for most post Soviet regimes. With such enormous resources these states could become prosprering countries, but nobody knows where are all the money and other benefits from trillions of dollars gained from selling gas/oil/uranium and so on.
The only reason I have to explain this - such regimes may prefer to hold the growth of people`s wealth. It is well studied phenomenon - migthy middle class almost always starts to fight for political power, so, this is considered as treat. This is not about corruption, this is due to good elaborated principle - rulers do not allow society to become truly prospering just not to lose their power and control.
For instance, how could not most of programmers and scientists to object to the decision to destroy the ties with West? And businessmen? Freelancers? These people are middle class or near to it and they can not agree to lose their positions. But currently they do not have even a possibility to protest, if they had it, the regime may lose its wide support.
As this is only the hypothesis, I can not be asssured here. However, I saw many years ago a US report made in 1960s, which demostrated that well-educated, mobile and independent middle class is a deadly treat for any regime, even for democracies.
>stable system like this
If you take a look at Northern Korea, you may find the regime stable.
>part of the collective mindset
Yes, sure.
>Think of the Korean war, for example.
I mean only Russian history at this point.
>Russia doing the exact same
I hear this for the first time. May you provide me with more information about this? It is very interesting.
I should note that Russia was blamed by Western propaganda for many things but I did not hear that this point was widely highlighted.
>When country faces a war, it's more like a rule than exception to restrict democracy.
Could it occur that across the West it will happen? I mean that pro-Russia views will be banned and even materials which are neutral will be under the censorship?
>what Putin's regime is doing in west
So, I have described in previous posts why western states and western values are considered here as dangerous. In turn, may you give a brief overview what are the reasons to see Russia as a treat for the West? I mean not just recent events but wider point of view.
>many of such labs around the world
Yes, there are many such US labs over the world. The key point for concerns is that these labs are closed to experts from other states, so, nobody knows what is the exact purposes of their investigations.
>Ukraine's labs prolly roots to CCCP
I may recommend you Alibek Ken`s (he was chief of one of such SU`s warlabs during 1980s) books if you are interested in this topic. Briefly, SU has a number of biological warlabs which were destroyed in 1990s and key results became accessible to US. Ofc, all these labs were not rised from nothing, but, they grew in number and were upgraded by US to meet modern standards.
>You make shit news = you lose readers
I do not know exactly with solid examples how it works in western states. But I know (due to our prapaganda, ofc) the cases with fake news with wrong claims that Russian troops destroy Ukrainian cities just because they want to do it.
>if they ever get to EU
>Russian media being hypocratic
The same thing occured with western media here. If they spoke that will support Ukraine to join EU, how they could close their eyes for this rude (I mean Russian language ban and "native nations" law) violations? If their officials supported Azov and spoke like "our children will go to school while Donbass children will sit at basements" (these word by Poroshenko)? Finally, many civilians in Donbass were killed by this regime and western paid a tiny attention to this.
However, I agree that our media are under heavy governmental control.
>implying to theories about CIA involvement in 2013-2014
I just have some simple questions. How did ordinary people demonstrate such excellent organization and communications? How did they developed so elaborated political and economical programs? How did this people get succeed with standing against armed and well-trained police and special forces? Who did train leaders and coordinators of these events?
>Zelensky defended the Russian speaker's rights?
Nope. The "native nations" law was developed during his term.
>for the state to be bilingual
Yes, I know that many EU states support this policy and I find it extremely reasonable as it prevent any kind of discrimination based on language. Many regions in Russia follow the same way. Similar situation occurs in some of post-Sovient states.
So, to ban language means to start a conflict inside a nation which easily lead to horrible consequences.
>USA's foreign politics
So, the decision to wage war on Iraq was the starting point of Russia-NATO increasing confrontation as you interested what went wrong at that time.
>only see a psychopathic leader
I consider this narrative as fully propagandistic. The same occurs here. Our media speak that Biden is dangerous marasmatic idiot, that Zelensky is drug addicted, that most of Western rulers are genetic russophobes and so on. Look, it is very easy to be trapped at this point. When I read Western media describing Turkmenistan, I was assured that their leader is mad man who can do only absurd things like to ban all non-white cars in his capital city or to force people to swear on the Koran that they will not use VPNs (and this is true). But I when read carefully more articles about this country, its resources and economy, traditions and so on, I found that the country continues to develop and smth positve happens there. It is very attractive to consider, for instance, Nothern Korea as Mordor with no sanity and life there. Let`s don`t be trapped by these tricks.
>It's easy to debate this issue, if your rights have not been touched - yet
I have some experience with such things, a tiny violations measured by real treats here. The only conclusion - you will be inevitably fucked up if you are a simple guy without good friends. Even if you have them, they will say - do not interfere, how are you, fucking revolutionist? So, the decision to feel youself comfortable is just to forget all these nice things. What will happen if you see unfair things everywhere, regret about lack of democracy, about human rigths violations and so on? It is very good position to blame Russians for they prefer not to participate in rallies, not to make pressure on state, to claim us for "bad" mindset an so on, if you are assured that you can do such things in you own country without any bad consequences for you.
That`s why cynicism and gloomy humor are the real methods not to gone mad.
>scientifical fact for any group of people.
Sure.
Recently I was invited to a meeting consisted of people who have their own gardens. What did I see there? Screams and shouts, treats and claims, a corrupted chairman and so on. There were no any fruitful results, so, the decision was again made by chairman and his friends. Ofc, this is rotten system, but it works, to some extent. I can not imagine what should happen to make the things better.
>you recognize the problem of private media
Yes, I did. My objection is that our "free" media are almost always promote western narratives and even filials of western media. I may really be interested to find non-state povs, but I see idiotic narratives like "ohh, poor invaded Ukraine", "Zelensky is a great leader", "let`s repent for we are Russians", "our army uses weapons gained from WW2", "we must to start the mobilization!" and another delirium dreams. It is incredibly hard to find a calm analysis of the situation, with solid facts, geopolitical, economical and historical reasons, consequences and so on. All what I see at all the media - shrill shouts and stupid propaganda: - You are fascist! no, you are fascists and neo-Nazis! totalitarism and no free media in Russia! no, you have invented the cancel culture, so, you do not have free media! - and so on.
Everywhere I see an "experts" with their fucking "opinions", screams and histery, I am so tired of this shit. One of such idiots proposed to nuke Azerbaydjan, for instance; another talks that we should start de-nazification of all post-SU states.
>let all hope be gone just yet
So, a recent news is that Russia will refuse to sell gas to EU if EU will not agree to pay in rubles. This is worse than in the worst periods of Cold War.
>best background for leader might just be an actor
I would like to make this point clearer. A person with any background could be a politician but it is obligatory to learn how to make responsible political decisions, to learn a situation inside and outside a state, to gain strong links with other political forces and so on. And Zelenskiy did not have it, he became a president without it.
>Also isn't there, in theory, a fuckload of space in Russia to cultivate food?
Dont listen these faggot-alarmists. Russia is a food and stuff exporter, what the fuck is starvation?
But we have problems with microelectronics (and not only electronics), because we can draw a processor circuit, but only Taiwan can make it. We fucked up all the electronic factories of the USSR times.
>they prolly wouldn't care about wars to come
I see this as a kind of geopolitical split of the world - some state prefer to be with the West, while others want to collaborate with Russia/China alliance or to be a neutral. So, I can not agree that Russia has nothing to lose across the world.
>who launched the separatist movements in Donbas?
The active events over Ukraine started from the Maidan and attempts to ban Russian language at Donbass region as people there were mainly Russian speakers and sympathize Russia. So, they did not support the decision to join EU and found the Maidan supporters as hostile force.
>Russia were aggressive towards them
Minsk agreements were about incorporatng Donbass region back to Ukraine and Russia insisted on this point. There were no needs not to ignore these agreements and to start preparing military forces for the full scale war.
>economics & geopolitics
And strategic security as its pars as well. The expansion of NATO is a nightmare itself, and this become a point of the Ukraine`s political agenda after 2014-15.
>they fund and support far-right & neo-nazi groups everywhere in the world
This is very interesting info, thx a lot. I am not awared about their activities inside Russia, moreover, I do not know who they really are. But I see it very reasonable. I may imagine that far-right forces across Western states may be very attractive for westerners.
It may seem surprisingly but I am better awared about alt rights ideology and views, their attempts to find scientific facts to "prove" white supremacy and so on. There are exist some sources here with such agenda and it looks very unsuitable here as there is a tiny number of Black people here. But.. If this is a reflection of such ties between Russian and Western far rights, it seems very reasonable.
Tbh, this is a little bit shocking for me.
>This has to do with denazification of (insert nation.)
I can not disagree with this point. Our propaganda sometime blames post Soviet state for they are "Nazis".
Look, I read carefully Kazakhstan`s media, I have been living there and have many friends in this state, so, a claims to "prove" that there are "Nazis" in Kazakhstan are fully insane. I may agree that there may be Muslim radicals, even jihadists, or some people who blame deadly Russians for Soviet era. But Russian media like a lot a topic that Russian speakers are under "heavy pressure" over Kazakhstan, some of public speakers and deputies are talking about "Lenin`s territorial gifts" and initially I may consider this as a preparation of Russia`s public opinion fot a possible more active actions. However, until Kazakhstan is influenced heavily by Russia and China, there can not be any military treats for this state. Moreover, Kazakhstan is included into military and economical alliances with Russia. Therefore, I consider such things as a vile propaganda to feed an imperial ambitions of Russians.
Well, I see your concerns on this point better.
>KremlinBots™ was spread a hate and fear
>In western media
The most important one who spreads hate and fear is the Western media, lol. Whta do you mean, this is a paranoia
>practice it will turn into nightmare as most of people are not prepared to adandon their habits, lifestyle and comfort.
I get it. As I said, I view it as personal utopia kind of a thing.
In west we live the times of post-materialism, and the concept of work lives a huge transformation. We easily nostalgize work, that is not instrumental, but that holds intrinsic value. Such as chopping wood for fireplace, for example.
>well-educated, mobile and independent middle class is a deadly treat for any regime, even for democracies.
I guess that's one way to look at it. But I find it really hard to see as a threat of any kind. If you look at our middle class, it's consisted of a working class people. They have enough wealth to support their own lives, but to be a political threat? Hard for me to see how. It's hard for me to even see it as political group of any kind. Of course, as majority of people here are middle classed, politics have to take good care of their rights, if they choose to stay in power.
I realize that tho as Russia is a gas station country, the rulers don't feel the need to take care of middle class. You see, as we don't have natural resources, human resources are our main income source, and most valuable resource. In this sense country not having a natural resources can be also a blessing.
I might also add that here we look things very differently. Here politicians losing power is not seen as a threat, but ultimately even a necessity.
>If you take a look at Northern Korea, you may find the regime stable
But with what sacrifices? Executing everyone who be opposing their leader? With the well being of their people?
>I hear this for the first time. May you provide me with more information about this? It is very interesting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Imperial_Movement
Look at the reference list. There are tens of articles, even from academia, to talk about it. Some of them are from Russian media iirc.
And I get Russia is being blamed alot of things, but this is not propaganda. Tbh I find it almost miraculous that western leaders do not talk about this more. Partly it might be because it's hard to get evidence from it. And partly because I think it's because they don't want people to panic. These people can be a direct terrorist threat even: not too long time ago our police prevented even far-right terrorism strike.
>Could it occur that across the West it will happen? I mean that pro-Russia views will be banned and even materials which are neutral will be under the censorship?
Yes, and you can see it already happening. There have been literally billions of fake propaganda accounts deleted by Facebook & Twitter alone. I find it understandable that they cannot support Russian propaganda, by offering the propagandist a platform. I remind you, that it's not exactly a form of harmless trolling, and they don't simply act as a voice of Kreml. But they also support extremist organizations, and try to destabilize & demoralize west.
When it comes to limiting of democratical processes by law, well, that's a whole lot of different thing. They are to be touched only in very special or extreme situations. Such as war, or other type of direct threat.
Here you have to realize, that what Russia does is kinda weird. We don't see any other country trying to push aggressively to our information space. Or well, except for China, but apparently it uses a bit different strategies than Russia (and I think most of it is directed towards USA?)
>may you give a brief overview what are the reasons to see Russia as a treat for the West? I mean not just recent events but wider point of view.
1) Direct acts of insulting sovereign states, such as flying with nuclear weapons today in the air-space of Sweden.
2) Acts in the information space. One example: anti vac propaganda causes huge losses to societies in resources, and even in human lives. Besides that, it aims to exploit the democracy, which it finds to be weakness. This has to do with the interference of elections also.
3) Supporting the extremist groups. This one I've already covered a bit. No one likes nazis, and here we see Russia funding them & even training them militarily.
4) The rhetorics of Russian leaders are found often interpret as threats. This also has to do with the Russian narrative of expecting safety in the expense of others.
I kinda opened it also in this msg from Finnish perspective:
Can you interpret such actions as anything else than a threat, or insulting a sovereign nations? This leads to stupid situation, because it easily leads to confrontation, instead of co-operation & partnership. When it comes to defense politics, one could even claim that Putin really is the number 1 recruiter for NATO.
Also, having seen what is going in Ukraine might be found as a threat by many. Russia annexing land and not giving af about any principles that for our eyes are simply wrong. This also leading to Russian people being brainwashed believing that it's okay. We cannot help ourselves thinking "can we be next?", if the Russian people cannot stop the current development.
>If they spoke that will support Ukraine to join EU, how they could close their eyes for this rude (I mean Russian language ban and "native nations" law) violations?
I checked from Google, It's been a topic in various medias.
And look, the Ukrainian crisis hasn't exactly been the most clearest one. And it's been going on for years. It's not like everyone can or is interested to keep up with the details. So now you have to think of where the main focus is: Russia being an aggressor, and invader.
From this context, the actions done by Ukrainians might feel to readers understandable: they don't want to have anything to do with Russians, but instead want to get rid of the influence by any means.
And look, it might look a bit hypocratic, if Russia is to first start the separatist protests, and annex the land, and then wonders that people get hurt there. I want to remind you: the people who support Donbas people in Finland's media, they are criminals, who are known to cause harm for us also. Now think of 'em representing Donbas. It's been automatically interpret as lies and propaganda. It doesn't garner any sympathy, but rather disgusts people to see that happening.
>implying to theories about CIA involvement in 2013-2014
Look, if you Google, it's been speculated by some of the western media's also. But the thing is, if you don't have proof, you don't have proof. This is what makes it a conspiracy theory. Being a conspiracy theory doesn't mean that it couldn't be true. But think this from an angle of mainstream media houses. They simply cannot report about every speculation without proofs. This is what leads to headlines being dominated by the news with the confirmed facts.
I might also point out, that in Azov there are Russians, and as I've been explaining, the far right extremists get funding & training in Russia. But this is very messy even for me, because apparently some of them fight in separatist's side. But it can be even speculated, that the uprising is caused by movements supported by international nationalist organization, that's supported by Russians also. (If you go down this rabbit hole, it's get bit weird, I know. But I recommend you to investigate the matter.)
>The same occurs here. Our media speak that Biden is dangerous marasmatic idiot, that Zelensky is drug addicted, that most of Western rulers are genetic russophobes and so on.
You don't have to tell me that. I was trying to explain how things might look in general to people. Look, most people are busy with their lives. It's the same everywhere. There are simply no time nor interest to investigate everything thoroughly.
Besides what comes to hatred towards dictatorship. In Europe there is a long tradition springing from the times of democratic revolutions. It has made our societies to nourish and people to be relatively free. When you see westerners vouching for democracy, they don't mean anything bad. Quite the opposite actually. We just might not fully realize, what makes Russian as a country really hard to establish democracy.
And look. I wouldn't necessarily say that people blame Russians. Some few might, who think that every Ruski is a fierce putinist. And the ones who realize that people can't change things there, they'll sympathize with the Russian people, and blame the leaders. Because from our perspective the leaders should work to make the people's lives better.
And look, I told this before already in this thread to another anon, but let me repeat. This might sound weird, but maybe, just maybe, people see some hope in Russians. Compare this to China. No common language, totally different values. Or Arab countries, with Islam & Shariah. Is there a realistic hope to lessen the pain of the ones suffering in such systems?
The Russians share some values with westerners. Maybe the cultural clash is not all about being different, but trying to connect with you, to make the world better place? Many good things could come from Russia, if things were to change. In this sense the cultural clash is also needed, to find the common ground.
>That`s why cynicism and gloomy humor are the real methods not to gone mad.
Yeah, I get that. I'd prolly embrace the same methods.
>I can not imagine what should happen to make the things better.
This was a topic of talk in the last thread. I think what could be a really good start would be for Russians to have more internal discussion. This was also mentioned by other Ruski anon. Time & talk. Free media could help by alot, and maybe the internet holds some promises here.
And yes, it could do some good to westerners to talk to Russians also. To get some insight.
>It is incredibly hard to find a calm analysis of the situation, with solid facts, geopolitical, economical and historical reasons, consequences and so on.
I think the main problem here might be, that the pro-west medias there are not appreciated as medias. I mean, if I were a top journalist, I would probably seek a work place from the top medias. And those on the other hand have a problem of not being a free medias.
Also on the bigger picture, I think that Putin's vision doesn't cover too much of the people's collective mindset. Trying to force it might create even greater gap between the Russians.
>So, a recent news is that Russia will refuse to sell gas to EU if EU will not agree to pay in rubles
Yeah, was kinda expecting something like this to happen. And the scary part here is that idk what is to stop this development.
>to gain strong links with other political forces and so on. And Zelenskiy did not have it, he became a president without it.
If you look at his story, isn't this exactly what people wanted? Something to represent change, and people? A somewhat normal guy, outside the old politics and corrupted power structures.
Now something to think about. Apparently youth used to want away from Ukraine, afaik the people there have been even more poor than Russia. To move abroads and try to live in big cities abroad. Apparently, what's been rising in Ukraine, is collective national feeling. The same youth that wanted away from there, now want to fight for their country, and don't want to leave. They see new hope arising. Now is that all because of Zelensky? Prolly not. But he might be the guy to sum up something about today's people of Ukraine.
Oh btw, this is OP. Apparently my IP got banned again. /_\
Probably will. Its better to be part of some evil then to be subject to division. if you do not join, then the only option is the betrayal of Europe "we are for the Finnish people only"
>I may imagine that far-right forces across Western states may be very attractive for westerners.
You couldn't be more wrong. Neo-nazis might very well be the most hated of all people. In Finland we've banned them by law. No one likes them. But they can be dangerous tho, because they cannot get any democratical power (no one would ever vote for their ideas), and that is the very logic which might lead even to terrorism.
After WW2 everything to do with nazis etc. is a bad look in west. That's why some medias are even hesitant to talk about Azov for example. They don't want any associations to it.
If I've understood right, the Russian neo-nazis are in symbiosis with Kreml, not because Putin would like them necessarily, but he tolerates them because of mutual interests. One of them being the Wagner group, whose leader is neo-nazi himself. I'm not sure exactly how much they've influence inside the Russian politics.
What this has to do with the west? Well, neo-nazis are often anti-EU, anti-everything, anti-LGBT, anti-feminist, anti-sionism, anti-multiculturalism, besides that they are hateful, and willing to use even force. Putin to fund them equals creating inner threat in west. They don't have real power here, and they mainly focus on fighting with radical-leftist. Funny thing here being, that Russia apparently funds them also. It's all about destabilization of west. It's done with the help of non-democratical groups, who are the most radical (and the most anti-government.) Hell, most of them are even anti-democracy.
-OP
>really hard to see as a threat of any kind.
Let me recommend you an excellent article which demonstrates that the absence of powerful middle class here is not a mistake or just a temporary problem. The paper provides an extensive overview of the economical situation and briefly describes the reasons of low income level here. Regretfully, I did not see similar papers in English, so, this article in Russian.
https://habr.com/ru/company/headzio/blog/588961/
>This is what makes it a conspiracy theory
There is exist widespread pov supported by academical papers that all the revolutions in early 2010s as well as the Maidan are not about "people just tired of the regimes and decided to make a revolution", this is well studied and elaborated social technology with a similar symbols, key requirements and the same scenarios. And this is called colored revolution. In our public opinion this is considered as enormous treat as well as the regimes are concerned of such things may happen. Almost no one here believe that the Maidan was a people's revolution, here is considered as hostile western intervention into the country. That's why people here may find democracy and western values as fairy tails to brainwash your mind and to make you a fuel for such revolution here. And I see such scenario as apocalyptic end of our history as a whole nation.
I got that that such events are considered by Western public opinion as democratic choice, and this a huge difference in our perception. Such words here are often considered as mockery and due to propaganda smth like hate speech, you know.
I'll be answering other points later when I get access to PC.
Let me translate what he is saying in the Tweet:
"Precious mainstream journalists. You will soon be teached some manners."
"I am quite convinced, that Russia's operation is expanding to western countries as operation against russophobes. The future of Russian children demands for it."
"I am gathering the names of most stupid NATO-trolls (people who vouch for NATO) and I will send them a selfie from Kiev's victory parade" (Context for this was public executions.)
"Duma's line: Insulting the honour of Russian army in the internet max 15 year prison sentence. Separate prison camp for the western journalists?"
This same guy has been representing Kreml & Donbas for years. He is working under the Russian intelligence services. He has been convicted in Finnish court for harassing a journalist, who exposed Kreml's trolls for systematically spamming everywhere in the internet from st. Petersburg.
-OP
Sorry if there is delay in answers. Apparently my IP got banned (again) and it's really hard to get msgs thru with VPN/Tor. (I might get one or two msgs thru, and then I need to reconnect 15 times to get another msg thru using another VPN route.
-OP
Ofc not, Russia is ruled by an ancient race of reptiloids from planet Nibiru.
>as operation against russophobes
Its operation against tons of weapon, dozens biolabs and thousands of crazy nazi fuckers, which are located near our borders. We dont give a fuck about western Europe (eastern too though).
>Separate prison camp for the western journalists?"
90 percents of foreign press are left the country. Those who stayed should comply the country laws, strange isn't it?
>He is working under the Russian intelligence services. He has been convicted....
I dont know about it, therefore i dont talk about it. Maybe.
So, i dont deny that something prokremlin crawling in western information space, however, this is so small-scale compared to the slops (and fake slops) thst your media are pour out to Russia. The First World Information War
Is there a finnish analog of 2ch or 4chan? and i forgot how that funny brown thing from the video is called
>US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said on 13 February that the Russian Armed Forces had actively deployed around Debaltseve to assist the separatists in forcing out Ukrainian troops prior to the start of the ceasefire, the 15 February. Russia denied this, and Russian government spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that Russia could not assist in the implementation of Minsk II because it was "not a participant" in the conflict.
That's largely irrelevant - yes, we tried to improve our positions before the ceasefire officially kicked in, but wouldn't everyone? In the end, the ceasefire held (some skirmishes here and there initiated by both sides, but nothing major). We already know the rest: for various internal reasons, Ukraine was unwilling to uphold the agreements.
>The context also here being Ukraine just having done western minded uprising, and wanting to get out of Russian influences. I guess this was the roadblock in the end.
That's highly unlikely. You see, Ukraine still insists on retrieving Crimea. But Crimea is not simply pro-Russian, it's filled with actual ethnic Russians (67%; Ukrainians never amounted to more than 25%). You can't get Crimea back without Russia having massive influence there. And the population of Crimea clearly doesn't want to return to Ukraine; they didn't want to be a part of Ukraine in the first place, see their 1991 referendum - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum ; Crimea being Ukrainian is simply a historical curiosity. It was transferred by Khrushchev because it simply made more sense logistics-wise and made administrating it easier (Crimea didn't have a land bridge with Russia). No one thought the USSR would ever break up. Note that I am not saying that justifies retaking Crimea by force, I am simply providing context.
Same with LDNR, you have to keep in mind that after 2014/15, those lands were war-torn, lawless and piss-poor, even by Ukrainian standards. Everyone who identified as Ukrainian left for greener pastures a long time ago, most of them unlikely to ever come back. And most of those who remained are either die-hard pro-Russians or old babushkas (most pro-Putin cohort). In other words, LDNR and Russian influence are a package deal, there's no way around it, unless you resort to either ethnic cleansings or forced migration. And if you tell them that Ukrainian is even more heavily enforced than it was in 2014, they will rebel again (the language thingie was the kickstarter of the rebellion).
>What comes to the comment section, how can you know that those are not Kreml's trolls? Or how do you view the main narratives of Kreml troll's pointed at Russian audience at the very moment?
Well, why would a Russian troll write stuff like "this is treason", "I'm at a loss for words, shocked by this decision", "this reminds me of the Chechnya treaty, fucking politicians betrayed us there too, we had to pay with our blood", "did the poor soldiers die for nothing you double-faced politicians", "why start the war then", "ukrainians are openly mocking us now, this is a complete failure by the command", "they lied to us again, cannot trust our leaders anymore, every nation can now spit on us in disgust"? Trolls are supposed to support the government's decisions, not criticize them. This is a patriotic website, and people are going apeshit.
Also, people aren't blindly believing everything the propaganda machine says; they actually choose what to believe. A striking example is the vaccination campaign: no matter how much our officials insisted on getting vaccinated and even promised various (even monetary) rewards, the majority remained sceptical or even straight anti-vax.
>Or how do you view the main narratives of Kreml troll's pointed at Russian audience at the very moment?
They obviously want to persuade the population that the war is justified and it was necessary to start it. Their obvious task is to maintain domestic stability until the war is over.
The negotiations shouln't be considered too serious at the moment, but they are still important for at least 4 reasons:
1. We can negotiate POW exchange. We can also discuss safe passages and humanitarian corridors - otherwise, it's the Wild West. There was an Anon here a couple of weeks ago who claimed to have escaped Mariupol, asking for possible routes of escape to Canada. He seemed genuine, and among other things he said he wasn't even aware of the Russian corridors until he escaped - the defending army wasn't too keen on letting the citizens leave (because this means the attacking army can be less discriminating with their bombings)
2. It's always useful to start negotiating ASAP. The negotiators get to know each other, outline their key talking points, find at least some common ground, find what's critical for your opponent and what's negotiable
3. The talks show the West we are not total barbarians who want to occupy the whole country. They also somewhat reassure our people, the ruble always strengthens during the negotiations. They also restrain both Ukrainian and Russian officials from being overtly hostile, as that would be detrimental to the talks, e.g. our officials are not going full Hitler mode and refrain from saying stuff like "Ukraine is not a genuine country and Zelensky should be hanged".
I think Putin is pretty honest with his demands and isn't willing to budge on any of them:
1. Declare Ukraine will never join NATO and will never host nuclear arms; also no missiles that can reach Moscow. Current arms are okay
2. Recognize Crimea as part of Russia
3. Cede those parts of LDNR that are still under Ukrainian control as a punishment for ignoring Minsk tbh I think he would've been fine with only getting the parts we've captured so far
4. Stop enforcing Ukrainian
I'm fairly certain he isn't planning to annex the southern territories that we're currently occupying. However, the longer the war goes on, the more likely he is to view the original demands as too minimal and start demanding a land bridge to Crimea, too.
Overall, I'm certain it's the Ukrainians who's stalling the negotiations. They aren't even willing to agree to #4 (they keep stressing that), which is as minimal as it gets, and most Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language anyway.
>True, but is the Ukraine really losing, yet? I mean, it doesn't necessarily look too good for Russia atm.
Yeah, it isn't good.
The problem is, you can't go into a large-scale counter-offensive when your opponent enjoys air superiority. You can't even leave your positions because you're pinned down, otherwise it will turn into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death
And their air forces are pretty much non-existant by now. What little they have left is nowhere near enough to reverse the course of war, unless they get shipped a lot of Bayraktars, and even then it's a stretch.
They are also completely dependant on foreign military aid: while our military factories are fully operational, theirs have been destroyed.
So, worst case scenario, we are unable to gain any more ground and might lose some irrelevant villages. But even if we don't send any additional troops, they will never retake LDNR and the southern territories. And since what they're offering is pure BS ("leave our land immediately, and as a concession we agree to join a military alliance"), we have no choice but to continue this war (like I said, even if we wanted to, we can't leave without at least a semblance of victory), and that means more death and destruction for their land.
>Of course Russia will win in the end - I'm not to debate that - if it spends enough resources. But that's kinda the very strategy against superior enemy: to make the war as costly as possible for the invaders.
Yes, they can make this war very expensive for us. A few more months, and things will start getting really rough for us economy-wise.
But a prolonged war will be way, way worse for them. Their country will turn into another Afghanistan; their GDP will plummet (we will always have our oil and gas, but their businesses are being bombed); their brightest minds will either flee or receive poor education; their crime level will spike (even after the war ends, there will be thousands of armed people with PTSD); their cities will be reduced to rubble; their women will turn into mail-order brides for the European incels; that's on top of all the death and suffering that wars always bring. I feel uneasy even writing this, but this is the sad reality.
>What comes to USA-Russo relations, I think most of the world would prolly agree with me, if I were to say that it would be refreshing to see the relations being started from the fresh table. It might be disgustingly naive thought, but it has to happen sooner or later, to get out of the zero-sum game- / loss-for-everyone- cycle. Worst case scenario: two idiots keep dragging the whole world in their shit.
Unfortunately, this is impossible. Every post-Soviet US president (except for Biden) tried to improve the relations, but in the end, they do not consider us their equal and of course we're no match to them or, even more so, the combined might of NATO. Clinton was best buddies with Yeltsin, but still completely ignored us when making decisions on Kosovo. Bush, too, was initially buddies with Putin, but ignored everyone on Iraq and kept ignoring Russia on everything that was even remotely inconvenient for them. Obama initially proclaimed the Reset - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reset - and Putin left and let Medvedev become the President. You might remember Medvedev being a progressive and Western-friendly sorta guy.
But then the whole Libya thing happened. We agreed to a no-fly zone - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973 - thinking it was to protect the civilians and that it will bring Gaddafi and the rebels to the negotiation table it is rumoured that Putin wanted to veto it, but Medvedev insisted we should be friends with the West and that it was going to be okay, and so Putin decided not to interfere. But instead NATO simply started bombing Gaddafi troops, doing their usual regime change, and of course rebels, seeing that NATO was winning the war for them, were not interested in any negotiations.
This was basically it for Putin, the final straw. It is rumoured that he was deeply traumatised by the videos of Gaddafi's murder and watched them many times. This is when he finally decided that NATO is not to be trusted, that this is what they would gladly do to Russia if not for the nuclear weapons, and that because we have nuclear weapons, they will try to wreck us from within, hoping for an internal collapse. When NATO started talking about overthrowing Assad, it was of utmost importance for Putin to protect him by any means necessary. Not because Assad by himself was so very important although Syria was one of the very few non-USSR countries where we still had influence, but because Putin wanted to put NATO in its place extremely bad.
Then came Trump, who was friendly towards Russia and seemed willing to strike some sort of Great Deal between us. You know the rest - the American establishment simply sabotaged anything he did. Sure, he's a controversial guy, but he couldn't take a shit without being criticized.
And so we're here, long past the point of no return. As long as Putin is in power, the West will never even talk to us.
>>Russian interference hysteria
>This isn't exactly hysteria. To be honest, it might even be downplayed, so people didn't know better to panic.
It was definitely overplayed and I'm fairly certain they admitted that in the end - our intelligence and trolls are simply not that good. We fail our poisonings all the time, and Ukraine was a disaster for FSB (they thought people would meet us flowers in hands and that we had a massive network of collaborants, Medvedchuk and his "Opposition bloc" were supposed to care care of this).
But that wasn't my point. What we did was definitely bad, but this is exactly what the US does all over the world (and on a much larger scale) - funding media and politicians that are critical of the government; inspiring rebellions; deepening domestic issues, etc. I said "hysteria" because it was amusing seeing them go apeshit after getting a treat of their own medicine. Usually, it's Putin babbling endlessly about American influence, that was a surprising reversal.
>Our president S. Niinistö has been known for this saying "Cossack takes everything, what's loosely bound." (Idk if he's citating some writer or what.)
Haha, that's definitely a translation of a known Russian expression (it's used in a negative way).
>Also btw, the conception of history is very different when it comes to politics. In west we have short terms for elected leaders & parlaments. That's the metabolism system for democracy: to poo out the shitty power, for it not to get corrupted. When you are listing the short comings of west, you are also blaming the very leaders, who might've been even judged inside the west.
Unfortunately, as we have seen, American politicians might change but their foreign policy doesn't change much. The idea of American Exceptionalism is deeply entrenched in their culture. As ironic as that is, Trump is the only president in the last decades to not have started a war, despite being called a madman likely to start WW3 (and even Trump contemplated starting a war with Iran during his last days of presidency). In democracies, it's the establishment who reigns supreme. For example, it's completely normal for a mayor to rule his city for 12+ years.
>Even if the leaders would want it, they are bound by the will of people.
Yes, but it can also be the other way around: the competing elites enforce their ideas onto the people. It isn't difficult to enforce an idea upon people. Some ideas are inherently unpopular (raising taxes, for example), even if they're a good thing. Others (like "more money for everyone" or "let's take back our historical lands") are very powerful, but might be very detrimental. Some are simply unachievable, and yet very popular. Some might be extremely useful, but uninteresting to the general crowd. That's why populism is a thing. It isn't that difficult to shape the will of people. No matter which topic you pick, most people don't have the expertize to make an informed decision.
What Poroshenko was doing in Ukraine didn't end up making anyone any happier, and didn't help him win back the power. He didn't really offer any alternative and simply undermined what Zelensky was doing because he couldn't allow Zelensky to become the national hero who recovered LDNR, and because Ukraine getting 3m+ pro-Russian voters was a political death sentence for him. And, frankly, Russia was offering a good deal. Who cares whether the elections are held before or after the reunification, pro-Western guys were not going to win anyway. Worst case scenario, if you REALLY don't like the winners, you can declare the elections illegitimate - Steinmeier's formula explicitly allowed that "Steinmeier's formula calls for elections to be held in the separatist-held territories under Ukrainian legislation and the supervision of the OSCE. If the OSCE judges the balloting to be free and fair, then a special self-governing status for the territories will be initiated and Ukraine will be returned control of its easternmost border." They were not losing anything by trying. But Ukraine didn't even give the elections a chance. And what was the alternative, attacking LDNR and going to war with Russia? If Ukrainians were actually informed on the realistic alternatives, they would've chosen the deal any day.
I will comment on nationalism and democracy tomorrow, these replies are taking a lot of time. Sorry for the walls of text, lol.
Idk about that one man, do you have a source? Sounds like a pseudoscience. Everyone knows that Ruskis are amphibian creatures from Zeta Reticuli.
Ylilauta.fi
It's Gondola.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/gondola
"Gondola is a mutation of Spurdo Spärde consisting of a head placed directly on a pair of legs with no arms or torso. The character does not speak and is usually depicted as melancholic or sad." :DD
For you to understand Gondola, you have to understand it roots. Spurdo Spärde is the memetic ancestor of Gondola. Spurdo Spärde is umm, distortion of Pedobear. And Gondola is a mutation of Spurdo Spärde.
It's brilliant work of a art, if you think of. Spurdo Spärde used to be hilarious, always happy and positive. It makes only sense it's successor to be this sad, melancholic mutant.
LÖRS LÄRÄ :DDDD EBIN SUOMI PERKELE :DDD
Gorshok so young.
Rest in peace sweet prince, and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.
>You can't get Crimea back without Russia having massive influence there. And the population of Crimea clearly doesn't want to return to Ukraine
Yeah I was somewhat aware of this. Actually, I saw one of the Azov leader's interview about this, and even him agreed that it would be best to just let them stay there.
And actually the details matter here when making a peace agreement. The ceasefire agreements were broken how many times exactly? A dozen? It wasn't just Ukrainians that broke it. Sometimes it even hit the news where western experts thought it to be doomed even before it began, because it was so badly planned.
IF you want to look at western pov: https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/does-the-kremlin-understand-ukraine-apparently-not/
It is important to understand that Putin neglected the Ukraine's sovereignty, and instead only talked about his pov of things, showing 0 understanding towards Ukraine. From 2014 -> approx. over 10,000 people had already died.
>"Moscow increasingly took the position that it was not a party to the conflict — despite a Russian signature to the Minsk II agreement — and sought to force Kiev to deal directly with the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk “people’s republics.” The Kremlin now swats away any request by Zelensky to meet Putin."
You understand the problem here? Not dealing directly with the Ukraine, but trying to force it to talk with people who work under the service of Russian intelligence. Whom at least some of them are known criminals btw.
Here we still see Zelensky demanding meeting with Putin, for peace. He has denied all the requests.
Now if you look at the Ukrainian and western pov, we don't just see small Crimean crisis. Put Putin talking about imperialistic dreams etc., which they don't seem to agree with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Historical_Unity_of_Russians_and_Ukrainians
Now from Ukrainians perspect, how do you assure them, that the plan was not to annex whole Ukraine and replace the government? I think it's not the best done by denying Russian troops involvement, and being in denial about Ukrainian sovereignty - but instead increasing all the talk about Ukraine not having right to exist.
>They obviously want to persuade the population that the war is justified and it was necessary to start it. Their obvious task is to maintain domestic stability until the war is over.
This is kinda what I thought it to be. Now wouldn't it be sense for them to talk in a manner you mentioned, to allow Putin to use more power? If you look at it, those discourses looks like a demand to use more power.
All tho I'm not going to claim that that is the case. It is believable, that that could be very well be organic reaction to what's going on. I might point out that this shouldn't be looked like just as a small local conflict only. It might be just a small first step on towards something bigger. From this sense you might also make sense to western sanctions much more.
Would I be surprised if Putin has sacrificed alot of young men just to make Russian people pissed af and to justify the next bigger step with it? Nope.
What comes to negotiations btw, there is something shady going on. Apparently some of the people in the last talks got poisoned. And no, they weren't just Ukrainians. One of the Russian oligarchs apparently got hit the hardest.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/28/abramovich-ukrainian-peace-negotiators-suffer-poisoning-symptoms-wsj-a77112
Can we even rule out the possibility of Putin not controlling the situation?
I might point out that there is 1) there are neo-nazis on _BOTH_ sides, and we can't know for sure if Putin has ever vouched for them - only tolerated. 2) Apparently they've wanted the war the most 3) Somebody is sabotaging the peace negotiations even
>Overall, I'm certain it's the Ukrainians who's stalling the negotiations.
I wouldn't be so sure about that one. I might point out that this is Russian pov. Looking from the otherside it turns 180 degrees. And it's not exactly ideal. But the war is simple way to solve complicated questions.
>("leave our land immediately, and as a concession we agree to join a military alliance")
Ukraine has already agreed to staying out of NATO.
And I wouldn't interpret the situation all that positively for Russian army. I'm not saying that it should be done for Ukrainian army either. There is a lot of war propaganda in the air right now.
Also the reasoning from Ukrainian side looks like they've wronged _horribly_, and now that they've paid this horrible price, they should make concessions. They expect the victory, just like Russians does.
>I feel uneasy even writing this, but this is the sad reality.
Needless to say, war is always tragic and humanitarian catastrophe. And we cannot even begin to imagine how it's like. The reality is probably much worse than that.
Also, we cannot not know if this just the beginning of things going BAD. There still exists a real change of escalation. And if things start to escalate, where does it end?
>Unfortunately, this is impossible. Every post-Soviet US president (except for Biden) tried to improve the relations, but in the end, they do not consider us their equal
That's what power does unfortunately. But that what power does.
>You might remember Medvedev being a progressive and Western-friendly sorta guy.
Tbh he was mostly viewed as a puppet.
>It is rumoured that he was deeply traumatised by the videos of Gaddafi's murder and watched them many times. This is when he finally decided that NATO is not to be trusted
I wouldn't be too surprised if this is true tbh. I myself hated to what happened to the guy. Hell, Libyans prolly lived better life than Finns. He was loved by his people. And yes, everyone who has seen that video prolly doesn't have exactly a good memory about it.
The very last news I've heard from Libya is that Isis has been reaching it tentacles there. That's just wonderful, isn't it?
What comes to Syria, Russia, etc., I think the logic might be that if they grow too powerful, USA finds it threatening. And look: why wouldn't they? This is important to realize. Their main motivation might as well be fear.
>Then came Trump, who was friendly towards Russia and seemed willing to strike some sort of Great Deal between us.
I don't trust Trump one bit, but atleast he had some new ideas. Some of them bad, some of them lies, but atleast there was something fresh. And can anyone claim that he wasn't entertaining at least? :D
>And so we're here, long past the point of no return. As long as Putin is in power, the West will never even talk to us.
I'm afraid that this might be it.
>It was definitely overplayed and I'm fairly certain they admitted that in the end - our intelligence and trolls are simply not that good
Russian is not the only one doing it. Apparently China does the trolling also. There's academic research coming soon out about this. Atm. there are examples where the trolls have dominated whole narratives, such as co-vid anti vac narratives in the internet. If they can do that, think of what they can do to the elections.
Have a look at this: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ukraine-dismantles-5-disinformation-bot-farms-seizes-10-000-sim-cards/
It is expected that in Finland there exists similar bot farms, and I could imagine the situation to be the same everywhere in the west. There are billions of fake propaganda accounts that have been deleted from FB & Twitter.
And it doesn't just limit to election interference. They strive to do real harm. Or well, atleast they try to. This is where I understand that the FSB might've gone wrong. It seems like there are _huge_ resources spent on the information warfare. Would you be surprised if Putin's regime spents billions of tax incomes for that? I wouldn't. Now imagine reporting to authoritarian leader that the objectives are not met.
>What we did was definitely bad, but this is exactly what the US does all over the world
This thinking is exactly what leads our planet being a disaster. Isn't it enough for one nation to be evil and dysfunctional? Look, there always existed a change of Russia acting in a way that it would've garnered sympathy vs. USA. It's not best achieved by mimicking USA's actions all over Europe.
>Our president S. Niinistö has been known for this saying "Cossack takes everything, what's loosely bound." (Idk if he's citating some writer or what.)
Haha, that's definitely a translation of a known Russian expression (it's used in a negative way).
So it's like a colloquial expression? I remember seeing some article about this where it was wondered from where did he pick it. :D
>In democracies, it's the establishment who reigns supreme.
Look. This might even be a good thing. It was something that kept Europe trusting USA in middle of USA's presidency, that this son of a bitch doesn't blow up the whole planet. :D (It was actually a thing of worry here, to give the keys for nuclear weapons for someone like him.) We find it ideal for not one man to have too much power.
Also, imho USA is a bad example of democratic system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index <- USA is determined as "Flawed democracy."
But as I've been repeating, democracy is a long road. For USA the road might be a little rockier than for others, just like for Russia.
>That's why populism is a thing. It isn't that difficult to shape the will of people.
It's a thing, but ideally people should not fall for it.
>No matter which topic you pick, most people don't have the expertize to make an informed decision.
Kinda true, and look. That's kinda the case for representative democracy. No one expects everyone to be aware of their surroundings. It could even be argued, that people who are not following politics, shouldn't be voting. All tho it's a bad argument, because ideally the democracy should come as close as possible to people in decision making.
But then again, leaders often have the best possible information available from the experts - scientists, strategists, etc. Often time the reality is that democratical leaders try to balance between the two: the popular opinion, and the opinions of experts. Imho in any functional society, the science should hold a lot of power. Good leaders are good talkers, but ideally even better listeners.
>They were not losing anything by trying. But Ukraine didn't even give the elections a chance
Look. This isn't exactly so simple.
Now an absurd example, but look at this conversation:
How would you think Russia responded, if Finnish army crossed the border, and held it's own elections, at the same time speaking how we have a historical right to do it, at the same time neglecting the Russian pov?
My bet would be that Russia would nuke the shit out of us the moment we crossed the border. :D
The thing that's left is the power dynamics. But in the end both might end up losing more resources that what there was to gain. It's simply mindless, but that's part of the logic of power: destruction.
>these replies are taking a lot of time. Sorry for the walls of text, lol.
No worries dude. I'm equally guilty here. :)
He wasn't talking about journalists inside the Russia. But inside the Finland. We don't have Russian laws here.
He is practically threatening directly with escalation, and trying to silence journalists by threatening them with death or prison _inside their own country_. Yes, I know, it is absurd, and I know that ordinary Ruskis might not be aware of this.
His only work - from Finnish pov - is to cause harm for Russo-Finnish relations, by whatever means he can. Even using children disputes as his weapon, which are by nature a very sensitive subject. Perfect for propaganda tho.
And this is just a single example of how the Kremlin troll's act.
oh yeah, he is called gondola, i remembered. I like finnish memes, lol, i dont know why but they are kind and unoffensive unlike the global memes. I wish oneday i could travel to Finland, but thats will be too expensive for me, especially with the current euro-ruble exchange rates
Hi finnish anon!
Could you recommend any finnish movies about the soviet-Finnish war of 1939-1940?
What do you think about Sweeden?
хохол, спок
This isn't from Winter War, but I'd recommend Unknown Soldier. It's about Continuation war (1941-1944) and it's deffo the best (especially the 2017 version.)
We've made 3 different versions of it (1955, 1985, 2017.) That tells something about the signifigance of it to our culture. It's based on a book of a writer, who was a soldier. The latest version can be found in the form of series in Netflix, if you can contact to Finnish net thru VPN? Idk if it's in Russian Netflix.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4065552/
There is also new one coming from the same director, about Lapland's war, btw. I'm excited to see it.
From our perspective Winter war just the first clash, you know? Most of our movies are from Continuation war, which was much more bloody and longer war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War
Winter War movies:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098437/ (this can be found even from Youtube I think)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1145479/
&
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1433826/
(The first is about civil war which ripped us apart, and the second about winter war which unified us, because of common enemy. It's based on a book from the writer of Unknown Soldier.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promise_(2005_film)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317820/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_8
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343221/
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_suomalaisista_sotaelokuvista <- Here is a complete list of all Finnish war movies. As you can see, most of them are from continuation war.
But listen, do yourself a favour and watch the Unknown soldier first. You won't regret. It's the best.
Welcome!
If you ever come, don't go to Helsinki. It doesn't represent Finland. Go to a cottage by a lake in the summer, with alot of booze and sausages. That's the real Finnish experience.
We see some Russian tourists every now and then here. Once I heard a story from my friend (a porter) that drunken Ruski was in a bar, and he was about to be thrown out because he was so drunk. He bribed friend of mine, paying him 500€ (like 50,000 rubles) just so he could drink more. :D
I think this says it all about Finnish-Swedish relations lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lCvBneho48
Swedes are feminine and sodomist degenerates by nature. But that might be just because they are so progressive & evolved that we rest cannot understand them. We also hate Swedish language because it's mandatory as 2. language in Finland, and it makes us look like proper cucks.
But then again we are kinda close, and we've always been. That ad is from the times of Winter war "Finland's cause is ours." And they indeed did help us a lot, we got ~10 000 volunteers from Sweden and resources & we got to send our children to safety to Sweden. Mannerheim himself kept speech for them in the end of the war and said that Finland will always be grateful.
Apparently there is this saying in Sweden that "Sweden will be free until the last Finnish man is fighting."
burjo bora :DDDDD spearming pudding :DDDDD spede spora :DDDDD
Oh yes and btw: We got a saying related to ice-hockey which is a big thing here: "No matter who wins, as long as Sweden loses." :D
Here's the ad I was telling about, got bugged apparently and it wasn't attached to the post.
PS: Also this, if you understand Russian language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cKwXNJGYAM
(I think it's 3rd or 4th time I recommend this in this or the past thread. Great documentary.)
>He is practically threatening directly with escalation, and trying to silence journalists by threatening them with death or prison _inside their own country_.
>to cause harm for Russo-Finnish relations
Then, he is actualy dumbhead shizoid. Its strange that i didnt hear about him on our federal media. He must be a your local fucker which disgrace our country. Its not good
Btw, i often heard that Norway and especially Sweden dont like your peoples and your country. They think that you - subhumans and poor fags. Is that true? or my knowledges about Scandianavian relationships too bad? And if yes - tell me why, because i clearly dont see much difference between you
Well, if you ask any Finn, how do you view Swedes for example, the answer is "they homos." And I guess this goes for many Nordic countries, if they get the change to meme with the expense of other Nordic's, they can't hold themselves back. But in reality, it's some twisted brotherly thing between the Nordic countries.
"Norway is the annoying little brother, Denmark is the cool older brother and Finland is the retarded cousin." (Swedish saying)
We are culturally kinda similar to each other, even tho Finland is a bit weirdo with the language, and not exactly Scandinavian but Fennoscandian. Back in the days there existed a thought of Nordic union, but for now it's just a fantasy. We have a Nordic council tho, and it exists to keep up the good relations and to promote co-operation between the countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Council
I agree, and trust me he ain't a good look for Finland either. Helsinki University is trying to rip of his degrees, because they think he's shaming the whole university with his bullshit.
He is working under the Russian foreign intelligence service. Apparently Russian senator Boris Spigel is his sponsor. He is stationed at Donbas atm. Idk if he can return to Finland anymore, he has been walking on a really thin ice with the law.
And look, he is just the tip of the iceberg, who is a personification for the phenomenon of "Kreml's trolls."
awesome! thanks! <3
Its interesting, anon, thanks. I also want to know your opinion (and opinion of other Finn citizens) about migration from africa, afganistan, somali and other "evolving" shitholes. How it affected to country, culture, criminality? Yes, i know the news and statistics, but it interesting to hear about it by finn POV.
So funny man. I read a little the article in Wiki about him. On the one side - pleasantly that anyone have a pro-russian point in the west, but the other side - if these pro-russian dudes a completely doing a bullshit is so stupid. But i hope you understand that Kremlin roflers is not a diplomatic or political missions workers.
Generally speaking; immigrants from 3rd world countries are over represented in crime statistics. And it's a problem. If I were to say, it's one of the biggest debates in 21th century in Finland - maybe in all Europe. It's not easy topic, but majority of people recognizes the value of such system. Back in the 1939-1945 we had to send about 80 000 of our own children to other Nordic countries because of war. Wouldn't it be hypocritical of us not to endorse such system?
I personally view the system like this: If I were born in 3rd world country in the middle of war, would I want to have change elsewhere in the world? Or if another war breaks up, would I want my loved ones to be able to seek asylum elsewhere?
Np. Are you from Poland, or are you using VPN?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTYesNj_sBg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOPTno2xVqY
Its me, anon from St.Petersburg!
I came back to send more photos from the Petersburg
btw, the part of city from the picrelateds is called Kupchino, and many streets in there were named in honor of some balcan things, lol.
And now ill send some photos from Moscow, because its just a few days since ive got back to the St.Petersburg from my trip to Moscow
btw 4pic is the photo which was taken near that place from the video
I wish one day I could buy a camera, lol
bamp
Hey there, st. Petersburg anon! Glad to see more of your pictures. :) I've been following a Youtube vlogger from st. Petersburg lately btw!
I doubt you couldn't send much better pics, isn't here a size limit of 2mb/pic? So the camera would be pretty much useless.
How's the over all mood in st. Petersburg? How are you going to spend the weekend?
>How's the over all mood in st. Petersburg?
Btw, today is sunny wheather, its rarity for this area (and for Finnland too, guess). Full pants of joy. 70% of year we have a shitty gray sky and it very depressive
other anon, from SPb too
Hi! My name is Vanya, I’m from London. OP if you don’t know London is a capital of Great Britain. I can talk about politics non stop. Do you need it? I’m ready! Really! If you have some questions ask me. I know all answers. For example. What should do normal person in Russia now? RUN AWAY!!! Yes! OP l can only congratulate you because right now you found the smartest person in the world.
Ok!
I’m waiting for your questions…
Ok!
I’m waiting for your questions…
Kinda same here yeah. Snow helps a lot tho make things bit more bright. :) And all the green during the summers.
Winters are dark. In Lapland there might be only couple of hours dim light in the daytime during winters.
Summers balance shit out tho, because of midnight sun (we might have 24/7 sunlight in summers.)
*Camera would be useless when posting here. Could provide a nice hobby tho if you are into photographing
Wouldn't it be wiser for all the normal people to stay, and the political activists from west to go to Russia and support the rebirth of healthy opposition?
I wonder how they treat western political prisoners in Gulags? And how's the food like? :3
My friend you don’t understand one simple thing. There are no normal people in Russia. They used to be but today they are gone. This is the main problem in Russia.
For people in Russia not interesting anything. Fo them interesting only themselves suffering. Russia is terrible place. Don’t think about Russian you already can never help them.
Yeah but there is a way to shrink the size of photo as I remember.
>How's the over all mood in st. Petersburg?
Well, today it feels good because today is a good sunny weather, yet the wind sucks and idk i dont think that I will do something today or walk somewhere, i think ill spend this weekend at home :p
im actually in poland ;)
and im not an ukranian refugee, i live in warsaw for 6 years :D
the maximalism of a 14-year-old guy
>rebirth of healthy opposition
Nowdays, there can be no opposition in Russia, because any opposition must presented a interests of another powerful elite group. In Russia there is only one powerful elit group - monolit oligarchy, borned in 90s (moreover, Eltsin with tanks was fucking blew up a possible opposition vector in 1993) and formd in early 2000s by new Putin administration. We actually haven't another vectors of political views, therefore haven't a healthy European-like political system. We just have abstract Central government, which makes certain decisions. Yes, we have Duma (parliament), but all parties and all peoples in there - they are just the same. Its a good or its a bad - idk. Russian democracy exists only 30 years, and the 70years of a soviet rule dont disapperar instantly
It is a wisdom that a schoolboy cannot understand.
If you don’t agree with me it’s mean that you not smart like and other people in Russia. Anyway if you live in Russia you don’t have chance for survival. Sorry.
If you don’t agree with me it’s mean that you not smart like and other people in Russia. Anyway if you live in Russia you don’t have chance for survival. Sorry.
"One Gondola can't change anything!"
And all the other Gondolas around him very much agreed.
It's interesting how you depict st. Petersburg. Compare it to the view if you Google "st. Petersburg."
You wanna recommend a movie from WW2? I've gathered alot of recommendations here from people.
How do you view then unnormal? You are an ex-Ruski I believe?
Must be sad to lose hope for your fatherland. I feel for you anon, can't even begin to imagine how's that like.
>You wanna recommend a movie from WW2?
To kill a dragon. Dragon's heads represent Germany, Italy and Japan, so it's _technically_ a WW2 movie.
>You are an ex-Ruski I believe?
You don't have to leave Russia in order to hate its citizens. I, for one, have spent my whole life here and I have been hating Russians since before it became cool to do so. There are few non-bigoted Russians here and there, but in my experience it is statistically unlikely to meet them in person.
Ty for the recommendation.
May I ask what makes you hate other Ruskis?
See, there is reason why Russian opposition is non-existent. Starting from the crackdown from the government, which takes many forms, and ending with people like these
Just skimming through these posts is good enough to understand why they failed.
One doesn't have to be genius, to understand, than if you call 99% of compatriots "human trash" and "brainwashed idiots", while trying to maintain moral superiority, yes, moral superiority, considering they just spewed hateful rhetoric about a fucking shitton of people, you are bound to fail. That level of hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.
I sometimes wonder how these people manage to function, how they go to sleep? I wouldn't.
And it's not like it's very recent phenomena. It basically goes back to tzar times. Russians always suffered from the intense bout of self-hating and advanced forms of cargo cult.
But russians still voting for Pynya, his party of crooks and thieves "United Russia" and supporting this crazy war. They also write denunciations of their neighbors and fellow citizens who do not support the war as in the 1930s. And after this they are not
>99% of compatriots "human trash" and "brainwashed
Okay)) Not 99% but 86%.
I heard they were giving passcodes to foreigners (even though they could just stop banning the IP ranges). You can try and reach them on Discord, the link can be found at /d/.
"Come and See" is definitely a must watch, even tho it's super hard to watch. I tried to finish it multiple times but I just can't get through that one scene with the people burning in a wooden church. Haunting experience.
Бля, часто вижу эту фотку когда говорят про 90ые. Можешь рассказать в каком контексте она была сделана? у танков дула заварены, они с парада едут или че
>It's interesting how you depict st. Petersburg.
oh yeah, the real St.Petersburg in which millions of people live there is very different from the tourist's St.Petersburg, lol
>May I ask what makes you hate other Ruskis?
I am an androphilic mtf born in USSR. I understood from the very beginning that I am at best a butt of a rape joke, at worst it is a duty of every "real man" to beat me up.
I personally did not call anybody "human trash". But. Those "compatriots" openly hate me for existing in a way that is different from the sensibilities of a penal colony. My hatred for an average Russian is informed by their behavior towards me throughout my whole life.
for me, they just try to copy old East German anti-fascists, while themselves being politicaly far-right and neo-liberal to the bone, it just doesn't make a lot of sence.
Ты тоже вот такой коричнево-красный, политически красный, экономически коричневый.
What is happening here?
Why are you speaking English?!
Are you crazy?
This is Russian board and everyone must speak Russian here.
This is rule N1 here. Do you forget?
Ok! From this moment ONLY Russian. I hope you understood me.
Why are you speaking English?!
Are you crazy?
This is Russian board and everyone must speak Russian here.
This is rule N1 here. Do you forget?
Ok! From this moment ONLY Russian. I hope you understood me.
One that was not mentioned before is Rukajärven Tie/Ambush.
It's defo one of the best.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0162625/
Yeah that's not exactly ideal. I guess it's only understandable that a society where everyone cannot feel like they are belonging, is doomed to cultivate hate among it's citizens. I guess even western democracies have still a lot to learn about it, even tho things have gone in a better direction.
Live & let live. I hope you've had some great friends to walk you thru the darkest of times.
This song has been living in my head completely rent free.
Gypsy-rock, hot stuff
Gypsy-rock, hot stuff
What fins think about Russia? Do u wanna join to NATO? Where do u live what is your profession?
bump
Гугли ГКЧП
I'd guess on a personal level majority views Ruskis as ok people. The current actions are bit of a mystery for many tho, all tho it would be wrong to blame all Ruskis for them. We've had some Ruskis coming to Finland because they feel like they no longer can live in Russia, and I'd say Finns can sympathize with that.
That being said, Ukraine garners a lot of sympathy atm. Putin's regime is not so easy for us to understand, and generally speaking most find him to be the wrong-kind-of-leader, if you know what I mean. This also causes some fear among our citizens. Check
What comes to Finno-Russian economical relations, about 5% of our exports goes to Russia. Many see business opportunities in Russia. Besides that we have tourists coming from there. So the current sanctions will hit us also. It might be hard for Finns to understand why things have to be this way, the war seems like a loss for everyone, and there are no guarantees that it wouldn't escalate.
What comes to NATO, we've been NATO-negative for decades. After the attack to Ukraine, the opinion changed to NATO-positive over night. If I were to guess, it's indeed possible that we join.
I live in eastern Finland. I'm tinkering in the field of science.
Would u vote for a NATO?
What would u do if Russia invade your country?
What should Ukraine do to win this war?
I'm apolitical. Cannot vote myself as I'm trying to retain some level of objectivity (which I find to be ideal in sciences.)
I'd try to get my loved ones to safety, and do whatever I could to help my country. As a male I'd guess this means being prepared mentally to fight endless guerilla war in the worst case scenario. Only by understanding what kind of a burden it is, one can understand why NATO might seem like a tempting option for Finns.
The last one is kinda hard question. What to say, what doesn't sound like a cliche or isn't fully obvious? Cherish the good spirits. If you hold onto mental superiority, I'm sure you'll do good. Don't let people fall into despair. Don't forget the importance of humour. In the end strength is determined a lot by hope & faith, so you better hold onto those things. The most important member of any group might just be the one, who has the ability to make others smile or laugh.
May I ask your opinion on how you view the outcome for the war?
>I'm apolitical. Cannot vote myself as I'm trying to retain some level of objectivity (which I find to be ideal in sciences.)
How u can be apolitical according to your homeland?
>May I ask your opinion on how you view the outcome for the war?
Its not clear now, we don't know how far can Russia go and what his goal for this war. Hoping for the best.
Karelian-kun is here again. I think putin's russia is the end of russian federation. I'm waiting for dissolution
I'd say that education follows a pretty neutral point of view, Soviet concerns about the safety of Leningrad are mentioned multiple times and the role of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is brought up as well. People accept the realities of the aftermath and relevant demands for giving Vyborg back are non-existent.
>Is that one of staples of Finnish patriot, to be ready for an inevitable invasion from Russia
We have conscription and the possible threat that Russia creates is well represented but of course, everyone wants peace and trust/hope that the Russians want peace with us too.
>Are you proud of your K/D ratio, how much it mentioned in your folk tales?
It's a Reddit-tier meme.
Not apolitical in a sense that I wouldn't have political opinions or interest in politics. Apolitical in a sense that I prefer not to participate in elections or voting. Imo it's something that endangers objectivity. It's nothing special in some fields of science.
>Its not clear now, we don't know how far can Russia go and what his goal for this war. Hoping for the best.
I hope the best for you too. We were once in a similar situation. And look, even that we lost, in the long run I think that every step towards west have been good thing. And tbh, I think that you've much better changes than we ever had.
Btw, Stalin quitted the war with us partly because he realized that we are not going to give up, but instead would fight guerilla war if that's what he wished. If I were to guess, Putin also realizes that there's no way of occupying country like Ukraine with tens of millions of people willing to resist him.
Stay stronk!
Hiiojoi halojata päivää, Karelian-kun!
Sup, how are you?
What's that dude saying in that video?
Funny thing I read from an interview from our ex-president Tarja Halonen: Putin had "joked" to her that there will be world peace, when everything that there's left is some minor border disputes with Finland & China.
That's something to think about.
>Sup, how are you?
I'm fine but im worried about ukrainian people. I have friends from Western Ukraine and they worried about future relations betwen russians and ukrainian. They do not want to ukrainians hate russians but every day hate grows because of putin's war and russian war crimes.
>What's that dude saying in that video?
He's saying USSR is big country with a lot of recourses and good economy so sanctions are not problem for us but they are problems for the western world.
>. Apolitical in a sense that I prefer not to participate in elections or voting
As last time shows that to be apolitical is not the right decision. We need to be more responsible and take a part in our social life. Moreover, in Finland where democracy is in good hands, it is easy.
>Btw, Stalin quitted the war with us partly because he realized that we are not going to give up
There were more reasons for Stalin like a Germany with the army. Now we don't have such military power wich can invade into Russia.
The situation is a bit twisted. Russians and Ukrainians being so close to each other. I'd guess most of your people to feel extremely powerless. Most of the people must realize that this shouldn't be happening, but no one knows a way to stop things.
Is there any signs of things getting better in Russia anti-war wise?
On a state-society level relations, Finland has Ukraine's back. But there is only so much we can do. How would you like us to help more?
What comes to bigger picture, I'm not at all convinced that this stays as a localized conflict. Tensions seems to be getting higher everywhere. Who knows if in history the Ukrainian war is just a small conflict which started WW3? This makes things a whole lot of harder for leaders, because everyone realizes the consequences if things are to escalate, and they can escalate quickly without no one even being in control anymore.
>There were more reasons for Stalin like a Germany with the army.
I was talking about Continuation war. In the end of the war it became clear that Finland wasn't going to give up, but instead had planned to fight guerilla war, if Finland had been occupied.
The war ended by us getting rid of the nazis and making peace with Stalin.
>post-materialism
Yeah, I read some of the papers about it. I think that postmaterialism key concepts and rules may occur only with high enough life standards, prosperity and all basic needs are guarantly satisfied. What will occur if such a well-being will worsen? I am really interested about it. The key reason is that western and Russia`s sanctions will inevitably drastically damage world`s economy, logistic, global supply chains and all such globalization features. In Russia, with the drop of life standards, smth crucial will not happen as there are still many people who faced crisises in 1980s and 1990s, so, they could not be feared by the absence of many western goods. But what will happpen if the West will face the similar problems? I may guess that right-wingers and populists may rise in power, but I only may guess.
And I may understand how "natural" lifestyle may be considered as very attractive as people are tired of their "fast" lifestyle, stress, bad ecology and so on. From my experience, after living in Moscow for some time, it was enormous pleasure to go back home (I am from little town) and look at forests and steppe every time I wish and to work in the garden after intellectual exercises.
>with what sacrifices?
We discussed this above - people for a regime, not a regime for people.
>reference list
Looks interesting. I need a time to draw any conclusion.
>I find it almost miraculous
This is the central point why I have a doubt of this. Any Russian threat, real or unimaginable, is widely discussed in Western media. How it is possible that this topic was not highlighted? Look, Biden called white suprematiscs the most dangerous inner threat, so, why there was not any attempts to blame Russia again? In early 2000s, when Russia opposed terrorisms in Chechnya, our media widely duscussed this topic and speculated that there may be ties between terrorists and CIA.
>try to destabilize & demoralize west
West has an excellence in media, economic, military forces and most of R&D areas.
But I see an oppurtunity why Russia`s actions may be considered as a treat for the democracy. As Russian threat grows and sanctions as a responce will be implemented, there a crisis in West may occur. To cope with it, western rulers may decide to sacrifice some of the democtratic procedures in order to stop Russia, even in very high price. For instance, currently western politicians talk that people should decrease their needs for fuel in order to stop Putin. Will this trend stop?
This is the only reason for me to worry about things we are discussing at this point.
>to push aggressively to our information space
There were many filials of Western media here with the hostile agenda. Russia had only RT. West holds the most popular platforms (FB and so on) with just only pro-Kremlin trolls which were easily recognized and banned, so, this is a duty of such platforms - to ban a trolls. From the other side, there were many NGOs and NCOs supported by Western funds with hostile agenda and destructive content; to ban them means to worsen the relations with West, so, until the current events, they were not banned. So, the advantages of West are obvious and its agression is much more stronger.
Let`s be honest here.
>1) Direct acts of insulting sovereign states
The same often occurs from NATO, such as US` Navy ships which are often goes to the Black Sea, US` violations of Russia`s air-space over Black and Barents Sea and so on.
Anti-missile defence based over EU states in 2000s is an excellent example. These systems were aimed to destroy the nuclear balance between Russia and US.
So, ironically, there is no reason to worry about nuclear war: if a country desires to place such systems or even nukes, the country then aimed by Russian missiles. There is no more idiots in Russia who consider NATO as "defensive alliance".
>flying with nuclear weapons
Well, I agree that this is frightening and this is reasonable. You are going to join NATO? Then be ready to be under nuclear threat.
What is wrong here? US` are trying to force other states to join anti-Russia sanctions using economical threats. It`s fair.
>2) Acts in the information space.
Here, for years we have listened that Russia is undemoctratic state with bloody terrible history, terrible psychopaths had risen in power, have seen the pictures with Russia scattered by ~20 independent states and so on. And when the West faces the responce, they are starting to shout - how dare are you, you, totalitaristic Mordor? A recent example - how dare are you to require the payments in your unknown filthy rubles? And they speak these things after blocking Russia`s currency. It`s fair again.
>anti vac propaganda
Exactly the same was here.
However, one may find this point doubtful. Official lied a lot on the argumentation why people should obligatory have a shot, and shot again and booster and so on.
>3) Supporting the extremist groups
The similar situation was with terrorists in Chechnya. Putin was blamed by Western officials for "human right violations" while fighting with these terrorists, while Western media called them "heroes" and "diccidents". They literally justified the terroristic acts. Then, Russian media and trolls and propaganda have all the reasons to name far-rights as "cute opposition" or "just boys who saw a lot of CCC stuff".
So, even if Russia supports far-rigths, it`s fair again.
>4) The rhetorics of Russian leaders are found often interpret as threats.
Initially rhetorics was quite calm. With NATO expansion and support of pro-Western revolutions in Georgia and Ukraine, the rhetorics step by step gone more and more agressive. Ofc, it`s a direct threat, but what can be expected as a reaction? Give us humanitarian bombardments, please?
Yes, I got that you describe the things as ordinary westerner may see them. Btw, such "averaged" person may be poorly awared of Russia`s concers about worsening relations with NATO, anti-missilie defense and attempts to destroy the strategic balance. I may imagine that such a person looks at things as West is innocent and fully right at all his claims and the confrontation happened just due to Putin and his corrupted friends. The key point is - westerners may not understand well Russia`s motives, so, the events seem fully insane.
>We just might not fully realize, what makes Russian as a country really hard to establish democracy.
Mainly due to national mindset that is incredibly hard to change. You mentioned that one of the ways may be establishing a ties between ordinary people in Russia and western state, but I find that this does not work well. There were many such relations between scientists, businessmen and artists. Just notice that such people have some influence here, they are not ordinary Russians. There were 10 years at least to make the things better and a solid changes of Russian mindset did not occur. One may tryed to learn more democtratic working styles or making oneself more respectfull to a rules, but what did happen when a person faces the Russian reality? These things do not work well enough.
>might create even greater gap between the Russians.
I think not. Our so-called oppositionists talk directly that Putin`s support grows and this is due to the regime had made such "insance" people during Putin`s terms. It seems more realistic that the people would increse their trust to the regime as they believe that Ukraine`s agressin against Donbass and Crimea was inevitable. The analogy is - Stalin was wrong as he did not attact Theird Reich before Hitler did the same with SU.
>If you look at his story, isn't this exactly what people wanted?
Well, maybe. But I now how brainwashing mashing works; for instance, Yeltzin`s second term became possible mainly due to his agressive campaign with modern western social and psychological techniques.
It is good enough to see such unwilling clown as he highly depends on a forces which led him to his current place.
I am deeply sorry that I respond so late.
>In the end of the war it became clear that Finland wasn't going to give up, but instead had planned to fight guerilla war, if Finland had been occupied.
>
I don't think guerilla war could stop Stalin he was scared of the USA and allied forces that can join the war to prevent Finland's occupation. Yes readiness people of Finland to fight till the end was a big problem for Stalin. But I don't want to fight I am not a good fighter (
I'll be answering to your msg later on, when having some proper time to answer on a text wall. Having it bit hectic atm. Sorry for the delay!
I think the more plausible explanation was that western countries would've made it to the Berlin soon faster, and that was a problem for Stalin. There never was much to gain in Finland. Now they made it in time to split the Germany (and Europe) in two.
And yeah, I get it. Nobody wants war. One could argue that it's indeed the most evil thing in the world. We could all just be frens and focus on inventing new memes instead.
Hey, neighbor. What's chances to relocate to Suomi from St.-Petersburg? What do you think?
What will your people think about people from Petersburg?
Is it even real now?
Heya!
Are you educated &/ willing to work? If yes, it's possible.
Do you have family in Finland? If yes, it's possible.
Are you persecuted in Russia (being in real danger because of whatever reason?) If yes, it's possible.
If none of the above, it might be little bit more complicated.
The first thing you got to start working with is language barrier.
"Finnish is one of the harder languages for English speakers to learn. According to this ranking, it should take approximately 1100 hours or 44 weeks on average for an English-speaking learner to reach a general proficiency level in Finnish" The good news is that for Russians the Finnish grammar should be actually easier.
How to assimilate to Finland: Just tell everyone that you'd wish that Finns would annex & liberate Russia and you'll make everybody smile and they'll think you are a great Ruski!
Jokes aside: Majority will have no problem with Ruskis. And if I were to estimate, Ruskis are nowhere near the most unappreciated minority here even among the haters. And no, there are not that many haters, and they are prolly anyways busy hating people from 3rd world countries. :D
Did this answer to your question?
Welcome!
So, did you see the recent violence escalation ? Torture of russian prisoners of war, Bucha massacare or reports of violence against civilians ? Any opinion on the matter ?
Will be in two-three months, so yes.
Thanks
Хули чухонь в int не выпизднули?
RIP.
The matter should be investigated thoroughly. And tbh, I wouldn't be too surprised if there's more of such things coming to surface.
They are acts of pure evil, and if I were to guess, they had to be ordered somewhere up high. West needs to stay calm tho, because I think Putin has clear intention to annoy west - and that's been the case from the very beginning. He is burning all bridges down, and it's hard to see why this needs to happen.
To my eyes it all seems like too much of a invitation for NATO to intervene. There's risk of global escalation in the air right now, beyond the Ukraine. That's why we shouldn't look just at the Ukraine, but also further.
Hbu? How do people view things in Russia?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXbtT3i7BBg
эта "чухония" выебала твоих предков и выебет еще раз. Ымперский скуф
Can't speak for all of Russia, but for me it is obvious Ukrainians didn't do it as our propagandists claim. Our army consists of orcs who rape, loot, kill civilians.
Хуй соси, я либерашка-легалист. Почему иностранщина не в инт только потому, что одна страна сто лет назад выебала другую? Как у тебя причинно-следственные связи вообще в голове работают, пидорахен фашизоидный? Z на машину уже наклеил?
>How do people view things in Russia?
The ones who pick ukranians side view as the ukranian propaganda told them, the ones who stand by our government is picking it is version. At it this point everybody pick they truth and it doesn't matter that next or that information becomes available. Except for torture.of russian prisoners, hohols on high level denying everithng, but lower they simply say it is okay and this is how they should do it.
>they had to be ordered somewhere up high
What does it make you to say that ?
>He is burning all bridges down
No, not even close. If anything he tries his hardest to not make it worse. Keeps our military group in Ukraine at 200k against 600k and that's is just ВСУ, not counting militia. Constant talks. Ignoring all of Ukraine atrocities. He wants peace baaaaaaaaad, but the problem that he between two fires-NATO from one side and russians from another. We wouldn't stand the second Hasavuirt, you know. It is the biggest fear now in Russia-peace on they're terms. Better war to the end.
And speaking of which, Putin was never anti-West, he just wanted to be part of it on his own terms.
Совки победили же, просто ценой колоссальных потерь.
Всем похуй, половина модерации слилась после 24, если ты не заметил.
Жесть ты подорвался.
Nobody expected anything else than Russian propaganda painting it's own picture of things.
I should point out that by turning a blind eye for the possibility that Putin's regime is actually slaughtering unarmed civilians might be a wrong step in a horrible direction for Russians to take as a people and as a nation.
When saying this I totally realize, that for Ruskis there might not exists a lot of reasons to trust western/Ukrainian sources. But that's not a reason for you to trust your government either. Whatever your opinion might be on the truth behind the things, maybe we could agree as humans that this shit must stop.
I might point out that we are also being dragged into same shit. EU is also being accused of supporting Russia for funding the war machine with energy imports.
This isn't look too good right now. Do NOT be fooled by false hope that this might end swiftly and in controlled manner. This might only be beginning before shit hits the fan properly.
How to make it stop?
>Совки победили же, просто ценой колоссальных потерь.
Совки хотели захватить всю Финляндию. Но обосрались и переобулись в полете.
Не припомню такого, ты уверен ?
>How to make it stop?
Win the war, kill all of the enemies.
bamp
!!!IT IS HAPPENING!!!
OP, when we are on the front lines, give me a sign.
Finland might enter the anti-Russia alliance. However, Finns are smart and pragmatic enough not to sign for the annihilation of their country, the senator says. https://ria.ru/20220406/finlyandiya-1782087485.html
Joining NATO will make Finland Russia's target, according to the Federation Council
62%-74% support the idea. https://www.rbc.ru/politics/03/04/2022/6248adbf9a79475224363aca
No it's definitely happening.
>Joining NATO will make Finland Russia's target
Finland has always been target. It simply was not a big priority. But Russia has been trying to infiltate into our Political system, destabilize the societal cohesion through hybrid warfare, just like it has done in Ukraine for years. It is also fabricating fake history about the WW2 era history to portray finnish as nazis. They have for example, tried to rewrite history by making fake claims about genocide of Russians by Finnish. We know about the existing invasion plans that Russia has drafted in case of conflict. We know about infrastructure Russia has been building in Finland for years in case of sabotage and invasion.
We know we have been a target, that the sole reason we have maintained the Europes largest reserve army in propotion to population. That's the sole reason why we maintained defence while rest of europe was disarming. That's the sole reason why we are investing in education and resources to fight hybrid warfare and thats why each man goes through 6-12 mandatory military training. Russia was an existential threat to us 300 years ago, it was an existential threat 200 years ago, an existential threat to us 100 years ago and it continues to be a threat to us today. Nothing new.
Now Russia gone over the tipping point that forces us to prioritize safety over economic ties. We also have perhaps one of the best intelligence and understanding of Russia. Threats are not new to us. Russia plays by game theory and it has nothing to gain, only everything to lose, from attacking Finland due to Nato membership. A barking dog does not bite.
Side note: Russia is fucking terrible at foreign politics with Finland. These random threats only make the Nato public support skyrocket reaching levels which makes membership application almost inevitable because not supporting it is a political suicide.
пиздеж
As joining NATO seems to be now inevitable, I shall make one thing clear: this wasn't our choice, this was YOUR choice. Finland kept itself out of NATO through the Soviet times, through the early days of the Russian Federation, and even through the crises in Georgia and Crimea. But now your government pushed it too far. They knew that this was going to happen.
Good luck on the path you've chosen.
Good luck on the path you've chosen.
Sorry for the delay, having a shitty head ache.
Are you saying you are actually going to invade, but not nuke us? Well that's a relief.
I'll holla at you :3 But can we try to work out the peace instead? I mean idk about you but war kinda sucks.
Your 1st doesn't work (for me at least?) btw
Yeah it seems more than possible now. But would you say 100%? I wouldn't just yet. All tho I want to believe in miracles.
And yeap, imho this is far from ideal. But it's hard to see any other choice for Finland. Pick your poison, you know?
I'm afraid that one day we'll miss the days we were "neutral", not really remembering that we always had to fear (hope) if it would be respected or not.
Can you blame them? No one be reading small Finland's history and everybody just thinks we are a god damn football.
(Instead we are a hedgehog made of stone. Please don't kick it will hurt us both.)
And it's not like we necessarily would understand pov of Ruski's that well either.
Is sad. Things wouldn't have to be this way. Will piipul ever learn?
Are you saying you are actually going to invade, but not nuke us? Well that's a relief.
I'll holla at you :3 But can we try to work out the peace instead? I mean idk about you but war kinda sucks.
Your 1st doesn't work (for me at least?) btw
Yeah it seems more than possible now. But would you say 100%? I wouldn't just yet. All tho I want to believe in miracles.
And yeap, imho this is far from ideal. But it's hard to see any other choice for Finland. Pick your poison, you know?
I'm afraid that one day we'll miss the days we were "neutral", not really remembering that we always had to fear (hope) if it would be respected or not.
Can you blame them? No one be reading small Finland's history and everybody just thinks we are a god damn football.
(Instead we are a hedgehog made of stone. Please don't kick it will hurt us both.)
And it's not like we necessarily would understand pov of Ruski's that well either.
Is sad. Things wouldn't have to be this way. Will piipul ever learn?
> this wasn't our choice
The Finnish people said their word: seventy-four percent are in favor of becoming a part of the anti-Russia alliance. Good luck to you too, stay calm during the demilitarization, stay away from military objects, Russian soldiers won't harm you needlessly. But we won't allow US & NATO commit war crimes and human right abuses on Russian soil. We are not Iraq or Afghanistan or Serbia, we can and will defend ourselves, with preemptively demilitarizing adversaries if needed.
*Your 1st link doesn't work
Sorry, typo'd.
I'm not sure that joining NATO is the right idea for Finland right now. It could just drag the country into a possible third world war which, if it happens, will start before the end of this summer or never. If Finland joins NATO in the fall, then it will no longer have any risks due to the political processes taking place among the ruling elite of Russia.
Sure. I also wish I'll never know what a war is like.
Does it show this stuff? "В данный момент мы проводим технические работы, которые помогут сайту стать лучше. Скоро мы к вам вернёмся, спасибо за понимание!"
It works for me, but it shows this stuff instead if I visit it through a proxy server. Many websites started using DDoS protection, and it prevents a portion of legit visitors from accessing the websites. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H3xPB4PgWeFcHjZ7NOPtrcya_Ua4jUolWm-7z9-jSpQ/htmlview The third tab lists DDoS tools hosted on GitHub for all wishing to attack Russian websites.
Man, if only you understood us better. For Finns there is 0 guarantee that the man after Putin will be any more mentally stable. As I've explained many times in this thread, even if we could trust the Russian people, you can't change things.
And tbh things were going to good direction imo for some decades. Ukraine changed it all in one night, because Finns thinks it proves that Russia's leadership hasn't changed one bit when it comes to respecting the principles that we see as sacred for our safety.
Putin had to know what's going to happen when he started the war. I cannot get my head around this shit because this doesn't make any sense. Who is the winner here? Wtf
Rhetorics like that won't make anything better, trust me.
Good luck to you too, stay calm while you burn in a rusty tank, stay away from Finland, Finnish soldiers will harm you.
Attacking Finland is attacking the European Union. I suggest to consider it throroughly as against you will not be rusty T72 but the whole European army of brand spanking new Leopards, F35 jets and most importantly counter-intelligence. We see everything.
NATO let's go.
Indeed, haha, I just wanted to type something mean back. I mean, "Good luck on the path you've chosen" doesn't sound like a good wish, but more like 'the path for your people is set and the destination point is doom for you all'. I don't believe this to be the case.
>Putin had to know what's going to happen when he started the war. I cannot get my head around this shit because this doesn't make any sense. Who is the winner here? Wtf
Putin is terminally ill and mentally unstable, and his power is absolute, no one in the elite can resist his decisions. Therefore, if he wants a funeral for himself like a pharaoh - just take and launch nuclear missiles - then he will easily do it, and he will not be worried that Russia will also disappear. But this is an unlikely possibility. A more likely option is that the top military-political leadership of Russia really believe that in the event of a nuclear attack on a NATO military base, or simply on the deserted territory of one of the NATO countries, NATO will retreat from Russia and this will de-escalate the situation. This strategy is written into the military doctrine of Russia. And these people are really stupid enough to believe in this plan. As far as I know, Finland and Sweden are not on the list of goals for the next year, this list included Ukraine, Moldova, Kazakhstan (deleted from the list), Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and the Baltic countries. With the Baltic countries, it is supposed to start immediately with the threat of a nuclear strike, or immediately with a nuclear strike
> due to the political processes taking place among the ruling elite of Russia
Russia's most influential man died yesterday.
Here's something to lighten up the spirit a bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=873TNdQC5us&t=
(I recommend the whole vid, but if nothing else hear the joke in the end 5:35 ->)
We might all be space dust soon again, and it might take zillions of years for us to manifest into anything solid again. Lets blast on smile on our faces, shall we? We had our differences, but it was a good planet. I mean, wasn't it? It sure could've been!
I'll answer to msgs soon, having this fucking piece of shit head ache which is making it impossible to focus on anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=873TNdQC5us&t=
(I recommend the whole vid, but if nothing else hear the joke in the end 5:35 ->)
We might all be space dust soon again, and it might take zillions of years for us to manifest into anything solid again. Lets blast on smile on our faces, shall we? We had our differences, but it was a good planet. I mean, wasn't it? It sure could've been!
I'll answer to msgs soon, having this fucking piece of shit head ache which is making it impossible to focus on anything.
Scared ? You should be.
Please, don't. Lets not fuck up the thread. ._.
Idk if you realize, but to Finns ears that sounds like an invitation to meme with you. I've tried to explain that we are kinda self-destructive when it comes to instinct for self-defense. We have literally thousands of memes depicting how retarded we are as a soldiers.
I am convinced that majority of Finns would be willing to kill themselves before admitting that they are afraid of Ruskis. This is also something Russian politicians should learn when communicating when Finns.
Tbh I think Peskov did something right there today. He said outloud "we are not going to nuke Finns if they join NATO" and I'm pretty sure opinion for NATO swifted into more NATO-negative.
Now that's something to think about.
Btw, if anyone's interested in the war history, here's a funny one. The story in it's full length is ridiculously absurd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen
I've heard that's it's the first documented case ever of methamphetamine over dose. :D There's also Youtube videos about it with search words "aimo koivunen meth."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen
I've heard that's it's the first documented case ever of methamphetamine over dose. :D There's also Youtube videos about it with search words "aimo koivunen meth."
Strange as I don't feel intimidated.
Should I be afraid of low morale orcs with rusty tanks and sub level retarded commanders? I guess.
Give it a few months and your country will collapse under its weight. Meanwhile you should be stocking up on sugar but you're here shitposting.
I'm more scared about your fate than mine.
The situation is fucked up. Do you think the conversation wouldn't be aswell?
Also there is no proper dialogue with these people. They've been brainwashed. Your neutral attitude just confirms that you've been "finlandized".
Stop eating shit from Kremlins ass. You and your parents have been fed the "nato attacks" bullshit for decades because it works. You obey like sheep. Even when the elite works against you, you blindly support it.
Nato in Iraq? Guess what. Russia voted FOR it. UN Security Council Resolution 1546
Afganistan? Afganistan was prosperious but then Soviet Russia tried to force communism and eventually invaded it and fucked the country permanently.
Serbia? Questionable, but at least it ended the genocide.
He can't stop eating it. He's accustomed to it and developed a taste for it.
That delicious Kremlin shit.
///
Nää ryssät ei taivu ku raudalla. Perkele.
You are a nigger. Also, faggot
>Serbia? Questionable, but at least it ended the genocide.
Genocide was organized and filmed by NATO. They are masters in such things. It's their weapon to break holes in the social mind By the way, we see it one more time in the bucha.
Russian detected
Opinion rejected
Optimism is good, but nuclear weapons is better.
We wouldn't nuke the fins couse you not nuclear country, but should we started it and NATO intervent-nuclear Holocaust is inevitable. With or without Putin in power btw.
............., then why would you come to russian board ?
>but should we started it
By "it" i mean conventional war.
You don't know me, and still you are making wild assumptions about me. Sounds more like you are the one who's being fed "shit" information and blindly believes it: you can't even start thinking of me as a sane human being, you are convinced I'm "enslaved" and "brainwashed".
>UN Security Council Resolution 1546
Thanks, but this is irrelevant: I'm not Russia, I'm not a country, and I don't attend such meetings. No wonder they voted in favor, the Russian government was firmly pro-NATO and pro-American at that time.
> THESE WERE WARS FOR JUSTICE AND FREEDOM TO SAVE PEOPLE FROM GENOCIDE!!!!!!
So, you have brilliant excuses for all the NATO military campaigns that killed millions. What problems do you have with Russian military campaigns in Ukraine (over 1400 dead civilians confirmed) and possibly in Finland next?
> Questionable
Why only Serbia is questionable? Because they are "white", European, in the heart of Europe, bla bla bla? Oh, fuck you! Look at this video. This is how they want to kill me and my family, and the medics who will try to save our lives. And don't start with Bucha, whether the Russian army did Bucha or it was staged is irrelevant here. Russia won't invade my city, NATO will. https://nitter.eu/wikileaks/status/1511973047422513152
Hey, I feel a bit offended here. Finlandized? For trying to find the common ground no matter the differences? In an anomoomens imageboard? ._.
Imho that's exactly the reason why there should exists dialogue. For people to see things from other perspective as well. The thing you call brainwashing, they call it "reality." And people on Ruski side do have their arguments as well to think that we are brainwashed. Yes, I get the difference between our medias, but imagine having all your life in Russia. You'd be fool to trust any media after that treatment.
Besides, they are not all that brainwashed. We shouldn't judge 150 million people because of acts of small power clique. Hell, some Ruskis view like they are held hostage by Putin's regime. Do they really deserve to be judged because of him? These same people have used every reasonable opportunity to protest for things to change. There's anons telling their stories of having their fucking bones breaking because of Ruski cops. And hey, they might really have a problem making their voices heard.
Do you think we could be in a same situation with getting our voices heard? We have figures like a fucking Johan Bäckman with his twisted narratives, and yes, apparently he has more visibility than he should in Russia.
Our best hope is in the dialogue. It might not do much, but surely it does more than not having the dialogue. And if we just ditch everything in the first conflict of opinions, we are doomed as a planet.
HOX: Especially here you should remember the change of Kreml's trolls. I'm quite convinced there's more here than in Ylilauta. Do not fucking step in to that trap.
Just curious why do you think that NATO operation in Serbia is questionable , while presumably defending the 2003 invasion of Iraq?
In my opinion in Serbia there was a good reason to start a war (stooping the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo) which was achieved without causing too much damage to Serbia. In Iraq the there was a completely made up justification (threat of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq), war caused high amount of casualties among Iraq population, and generally Iraq became much more of a mess even in comparison to what it was under Saddam Hussein.
Bucha massacre was just as cruel as intentional murders of Russian civilians in Gorlovka (Horlivka), Odessa, in many cities around in 2014-2015. Ukrainians started all of this, back then. They understands only language of violence.
Serves then right. That's my opinion on Bucha.
Cannot speak for him, but I personally know Iraqis who had to flee Saddam's regime before the war, some of whom ended up seeking asylum from Finland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein%27s_Iraq
>In November 2004, Human Rights Watch estimated 250,000 to 290,000 Iraqis were killed or disappeared by the regime of Saddam Hussein
They messed up the communication real bad tho, because of false claims about weapons of mass destruction. Still, people shouldn't forget that this mad man were butchering his own people.
-OP (My IP being banned once again, so there might be delay in messages.)
I by no means was defending Saddam Hussein regime. Most certainly it was brutal and oppressive dictatorship that killed a lot of civilians. But the invasion haven't really improved the situation with civilian deaths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_civilian_casualties
>Following are the yearly IBC Project violent civilian death totals, broken down by month from the beginning of 2003. The top of the IBC database page with the table says 185,194 – 208,167 "Documented civilian deaths from violence". That page also says: "Gaps in recording and reporting suggest that even our highest totals to date may be missing many civilian deaths from violence."
Am I brainwashed or am I a Kremlin troll?
Call me the second and you're proving my old point: I, who never even considered myself pro-current imperialist government, was called that so many times I don't believe in this bullshit anymore. (Obviously, I know I don't get paid for posting.) Whether it was real or not, it mainly became a way to poison the well, easily dismiss someone's point of view. (Same goes to banning media and down-ranking websites as Russian disinformation.)
> Our best hope is in the dialogue.
You are better at it than the average 2ch.hk/int/ poster, but let's get it clear: the Ruski behind the screen is either brainwashed, on a payroll (trap) or held hostage, and you are trying to talk to the third group, the hostages? So, the whole population is the brainwashed, the traps (Kremlin trolls), and the hostages. Might this be the problem? No dialogue is possible without respect the other party.
That's stupid. People say things like "you are brainwashed", or "you eat Kremlin's shit", or "you are a Kremlin bot" just because I don't pick American anti-Russia side and don't take anti-Russia stance. To be a good Russian, I'm expected to say "I hate Russia", "I'm held hostage hear", "NATO, come and liberate us".
> You obey like sheep. Even when the elite works against you, you blindly support it.
Do I support the absence of doctors in the hospital? I need to wake up early morning to try and make an appointment for a day two weeks later. Do I support the fact the Pension Fund of Russia found a reason not to pay my mother pension? They have complicated rules, they said organizations names didn't match, they made a request to get information and got no answer. No, I don't support those things, and I don't support other things you don't know about.
Ну вот какой диалог может быть с этими кончеными блядьми, которые тебя за человека не считают, и которым надо доказывать, что ты человек.
> You obey like sheep. Even when the elite works against you, you blindly support it.
Do I support the absence of doctors in the hospital? I need to wake up early morning to try and make an appointment for a day two weeks later. Do I support the fact the Pension Fund of Russia found a reason not to pay my mother pension? They have complicated rules, they said organizations names didn't match, they made a request to get information and got no answer. No, I don't support those things, and I don't support other things you don't know about.
Ну вот какой диалог может быть с этими кончеными блядьми, которые тебя за человека не считают, и которым надо доказывать, что ты человек.
бамп
Hello Finland. Tell me, do you hate Russians?
Feel free to join the discussion, and share your thoughts about on going life & Ruski culture, and whatnot. Finns might gather up here also to speak about their perspective.
This is continuation for thread , which got filled up.